Question:

Wow Brian, for once we agree : ) I think that it’s a self fulfilling prophecy. I grew up on the Canadian border, so I was able to see the differences firsthand. In addition to placing a high priority on government arts funding, they also have Canadian Content laws (CANCON), which stipulate that x% of media output must be uniquely Canadian in origin. In America, this would be decried as an interference in the free market. The odd thing is Americans picked up  the Canadian TV and radio broadcasts, and started digging Canadian music. The Barenaked Ladies were huge on the border long before they broke big in the US. Even Bands like Lowest of the Low, Kim Mitchell, and The Tragically Hip could fill arenas in Buffalo and Detroit, even though they couldn’t fill a corner bar below the Pennsylvania border. People know what they like, and like what they know. The fewer outlets that are available for art, whether it’s rock music, or a Dutch Masters exhibit, the fewer people will be exposed to it, and the less they will care when it’s gone. — John Check out www.js3jazz.com to hear my tunes and get FREE bass lessons

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I just question whether it is a legitimate purpose of > government (which, in my opinion, is not the same entity as "society") > to sponsor art. > There are no absolutes as to what the proper role of government is. > Sponsoring art is a legitimate purpose of government, if we decide that it > is a legitimate purpose. > If the government were to give money to a corporation to > keep it solvent when the free market would not support it, some would > decry that as corporate welfare. > Well, you’re going to have your knee-jerk-reactionary types no matter what > you do… > Why are artists who cannot attract > patrons any different? > Because the purpose of art is not to make a profit.  The value of art is > intrinsic. > Regarding your Jaco example, I think most creative endeavors are driven > by the artist’s urge to create, not by profitability studies. > Not if you’re talking about major record labels!  Which Columbia certainly > was, in 1976. > So yes, I > believe Jaco’s solo albums would have been produced because the demand > was there. > But what John asked is, would they be produced in today’s music-business > climate?  The answer is clear — not by any major label.  Not by a long > shot. > … > The bottom line (for me) is that our contribution to the NEA through tax > dollars is not voluntary, even if you approve of the use. > I am not a fan of the NEA, the fact that my tax dollars are taken for it, or > the "art" which it sponsors.  If I had the choice, I would not contribute to > it.

Response:

I know Shambat; I am bipolar myself, and have been all my life. I don’t think there is any advantage in it though. The "high" side increases your energy and removes any inhibitions; I think people mistake that for genius. However, you pay for it on the "low" side. I agree with you about the treatment part. I put it off for years because of that reason,  until I just couldn’t cope on my own anymore. I’ve been on medication for a few years now, and I find I’m much more focused and creative now than at any other time in my life. I do miss the highs, but I sure as hell don’t miss the lows. It’s too bad Jaco didn’t give meds a chance. — John Check out www.js3jazz.com to hear my tunes and get FREE bass lessons – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I can tell you from experience that’s a crock of shit. If anything, Jaco was > successful DESPITE his mental illness, not because of it. > I believe that being bipolar increases a person’s chances of leaving > behind a unique body of creative work when he dies young. > Most bipolar people I know prefer not to be treated because they don’t > want to lose those times of productivity and clarity, even when they > know that paranoia and depression will inevitably follow. > -Donna

Response:

Thanks for the response. I certainly concede the social benefits of a healthy arts community, and as tax expenditures go I agree that the NEA constitutes a miniscule portion of the budget. We would probably agree on a number of government excesses, but oil wars and $400 hammers aren’t the (off) topic. I just question whether it is a legitimate purpose of government (which, in my opinion, is not the same entity as "society") to sponsor art. If the government were to give money to a corporation to keep it solvent when the free market would not support it, some would decry that as corporate welfare. Why are artists who cannot attract patrons any different? Regarding your Jaco example, I think most creative endeavors are driven by the artist’s urge to create, not by profitability studies. So yes, I believe Jaco’s solo albums would have been produced because the demand was there.  22 years ago or so, my band produced an album, which immediately (and mercifully) sank into obscurity. Why? Because there was no demand. Should the government have subsidized us to allow us to express ourselves? The listening public should be grateful that it did not! The bottom line (for me) is that our contribution to the NEA through tax dollars is not voluntary, even if you approve of the use. Thanks again for the discussion, Steve

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    Hey John,     I’m Unipolar myself, I’d never heard of it before until I was diagnosed last year…it’s the same as Bipolar only without the "high" part.     I took meds for a while, and they helped but not for long and had weird side effects (nightmares, stuff like that)…I find that having a gig every week and some friends to go out with helps more than pills ever did.     I don’t know how having clinical depression effects ones creativity, but I think not having to deal with any of it would be far better than being so down that you need to write a song about it.     -Jonathan     www.badspatula.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I know Shambat; I am bipolar myself, and have been all my life. I don’t > think there is any advantage in it though. The "high" side increases your > energy and removes any inhibitions; I think people mistake that for genius. > However, you pay for it on the "low" side. > I agree with you about the treatment part. I put it off for years because of > that reason,  until I just couldn’t cope on my own anymore. > I’ve been on medication for a few years now, and I find I’m much more > focused and creative now than at any other time in my life. I do miss the > highs, but I sure as hell don’t miss the lows. It’s too bad Jaco didn’t give > meds a chance. > — > John > Check out www.js3jazz.com to hear my tunes and get FREE bass lessons > > I can tell you from experience that’s a crock of shit. If anything, Jaco > was > > successful DESPITE his mental illness, not because of it. > I believe that being bipolar increases a person’s chances of leaving > behind a unique body of creative work when he dies young. > Most bipolar people I know prefer not to be treated because they don’t > want to lose those times of productivity and clarity, even when they > know that paranoia and depression will inevitably follow. > -Donna

Response:

> I just question whether it is a legitimate purpose of > government (which, in my opinion, is not the same entity as "society") > to sponsor art.

There are no absolutes as to what the proper role of government is. Sponsoring art is a legitimate purpose of government, if we decide that it is a legitimate purpose. > If the government were to give money to a corporation to > keep it solvent when the free market would not support it, some would > decry that as corporate welfare.

Well, you’re going to have your knee-jerk-reactionary types no matter what you do… > Why are artists who cannot attract > patrons any different?

Because the purpose of art is not to make a profit.  The value of art is intrinsic. > Regarding your Jaco example, I think most creative endeavors are driven > by the artist’s urge to create, not by profitability studies.

Not if you’re talking about major record labels!  Which Columbia certainly was, in 1976. > So yes, I > believe Jaco’s solo albums would have been produced because the demand > was there.

But what John asked is, would they be produced in today’s music-business climate?  The answer is clear — not by any major label.  Not by a long shot. … > The bottom line (for me) is that our contribution to the NEA through tax > dollars is not voluntary, even if you approve of the use.

I am not a fan of the NEA, the fact that my tax dollars are taken for it, or the "art" which it sponsors.  If I had the choice, I would not contribute to it.

Response:

> I can tell you from experience that’s a crock of shit. If anything, Jaco was > successful DESPITE his mental illness, not because of it.

I believe that being bipolar increases a person’s chances of leaving behind a unique body of creative work when he dies young. Most bipolar people I know prefer not to be treated because they don’t want to lose those times of productivity and clarity, even when they know that paranoia and depression will inevitably follow. -Donna

Response:

Basste, that was an incredible post. Finally we can agree on something — This nascent group of rag-tag ex-food service slingers aims to please you, the listener. Check us out at: http://echofission.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> no. I don’t want to be another, because of his skill/succes/chance > i just work on me to be a better person, in all ways, little by little. I > would really like to be a genius bassist; but not a jaco, nor a wooten or > other. i’m happy to be here, in my life, and try everyday to make it better. > > — > basst

Question:

Thank Univac for the delete key. buh bye (01-56)/56

Response:

What follows are the rants that were submitted between December 2000 and June 6th 2001. 04 Dec 2000 Time: 21:03:11 Remote User: – Comments SKB—Go to hell!! You are a bunch of lying, moneygrubbing as*hol**!!!! I was not told of potential withdrawal problems, I have been going through hell. My fourth attempt at getting off paxil I think has succeeded, I have been off 2 weeks but it has been a complete nightmare weaning and stopping. I was very physically sick-nausea, zaps, dizziness. You will pay for this someday. I am 30 yrs ola and sometime before I die I hope to see your ass in court. 08 Dec 2000 Time: 15:15:32 Remote User: – Comments To SKB: I can’t even begin to tell you sobs how much you mess up my life. You should be sued to where you have to go out of business. How dare you do this to people. Take on the responsiblity and do something now!!!!!! In my eyes you are killers. This is a huge 10 Dec 2000 Time: 16:59:32 Remote User: – Comments My name is rosanne , I was on 10 mg of paxil for 14 months then I tried to wean off . it took 8 months to wean off slowly. ever since I went on the paxil I felt like I was on a boat and had many other vestibular problems.that were not there before the paxil. also twitches andd other neurological feelings . It turned me into a stepford wife. anyway after finally going through the hell of withdrawl and panic anxiety dzziness like never before when I was finally off it I now still have all the vestibular problems have had to stop work and it is 2 years off the drug . I have been to every type of dr .every test . finally a dr has beleived it is the paxil and I was toxically exposed . what are you going to do to help the resst of my life that your drug has ruined. and 10 Dec 2000 Time: 20:52:59 Remote User: – Comments What the hell. I thought I was alone. I have been on paxil for at least a year. My eyeballs stick and then bolt to the other side. It is sickening! This is when I miss a day or so. How the hell am I going to get off this stuff? Nobody ever told me that if I wanted to stop this would be a result. Why does SKB website not talk about the withdrawl? SKB you suck for not telling us! 03 Jan 2001 Time: 21:28:12 Remote User: – Comments Dear SKB I am 36 years old wit h 2 young childern , a husband, a full time employee of Boehringer Ingel heim Pharmaceuticals. YOUR DRUG- PAXIL- HAS SERIOUS AND DANGEROUS WITHDRAWL EFFECTS> I was prescribed 20 mg dose 16 months ago ( but have only been taking 10 mg daily faithfully) for stress and complaints to my doctor about PMS 10 days a month. Good News , 10 mg significantly reduced my pms symptons which my family members truly appreciated but 25 pound weight gain in 16 months has left me feeling lousy so as of 12/30/00 , I began to wean by cutting to 5 mg daily and 72 hours later I am PLAGUED with nausea, vomiting, delayed vision, vertigo, chills, and constant tingling/ needle sensation suggesting my neurons are synasping into overdrive. Uncover your real Clinical Phase IV findings and treat your customers with respect; properly and ethically label your product. A very close friend is a producer at 20/20 and I will be asking her to once again revisit their paxil story. I know I can survive this but will use my energy to educate consumers. 13 Jan 2001 Time: 11:53:06 Remote User: – Comments My husband, 4 yr old daughter and I have been living in hell. Four yrs ago my husband started taking paxil for anxiety/depression. Over the yrs he has tried numerous times to get off the drug to no avail each and every time he has had to return to taking it because the withdrawls are so severe. My husband experiences extreme ANGER in his withdrawl it is absolutely uncontrollable and has resulted in having to take a week at a time off work. Our general physician who initially prescribed this drug is not educated in its withdrawl effects and so we were refered to a another physician who also seemed uneducated about the side-effects {including sexual disfunction, tiredness, dizziness,). We are in our early thirties, and feel we have no choice, but to deal with the side-effects of paxil rather than facing the hell of coming off Paxil. 13 Jan 2001 Time: 14:07:08 Remote User: – Comments To Whom It May Concern: I am a Registered Nurse who has been on Paxil since the spring of 2000. After several attempts to get off of your medication I am still going through terrible side effects. How would you like to be feeling nauseated all day long every day, have headaches, and feel like someone is giving you shocks of electricity every time you move your body whether it be you head, mouth, arm, leg etc. It’s a horrible way to have to go through withdrawal and because of this I am still having to take it. I can’t even get myself off by weening back my dose. I am a Registered Nurse and my anxiety is worse now then before I took it. How you could put this crap on the market knowing full well the complications it was going to cause people is beyond me. Like so many other drugs that are prescribed the bottom line is the buck and how much you stand to profit. PULL THE DRUG. Its obvious that the long term effects of taking the medication were never studied properly and along with the makers of PROZAC you should all be held responsible for the distress you are putting people through……Rhonda McDonald, RN 14 Jan 2001 Time: 19:13:42 Remote User: – Comments Life on earth is short. You should be ashamed that you have spent yours carelessly addicting helpless people to the drug Paxil, just for monetary gain. Do you not realize that you will spend eternity making up for this crime against those who mearly sought help? May you all rot in hell. Former Paxil user. 16 Jan 2001 Time: 22:41:07 Remote User: – Comments My name is Thomas Mokoid, I live in Coventry Ct., i have taken 40mg of paxil for nine months, cut down to 20mg for two months and I am now going through pure hell. Shocks,

Response:

Question:

I’m taking 300mg X 3 a day for cervical spine pain..and has anyone ever experienced SEVERE depression from this medication.?. I have been taking Neurontin for about a month and a half ..and this stuff has helped a little with the pain but this very bad depression is abnormal for me .. all I want to do is SIT and do nothing!..I want to taper off this med.. anyone tell me how to do it? this depression is the worst I have ever had !            thanks ..a LOT

Response:

> I’m taking 300mg X 3 a day for cervical spine pain..and has anyone ever > experienced SEVERE depression from this medication.?. I have been taking > Neurontin for about a month and a half ..and this stuff has helped a > little with the pain but this very bad depression is abnormal for me .. > all I want to do is SIT and do nothing!..I want to taper off this med.. > anyone tell me how to do it? this depression is the worst I have ever > had ! >            thanks ..a LOT

I’ve been taking 4800 mg a day for almost a year and have had no side effects at all. Sorry to hear about your depression, maybe you should discuss this with your doc first before you decide it’s the Neurontin.

Response:

I’d call your doc up right away…everyone has different side effects, and I think depression can be a side effect to any drug we take. Don’t live with it–have your doc try a different pain killer.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’m taking 300mg X 3 a day for cervical spine pain..and has anyone ever > experienced SEVERE depression from this medication.?. I have been taking > Neurontin for about a month and a half ..and this stuff has helped a > little with the pain but this very bad depression is abnormal for me .. > all I want to do is SIT and do nothing!..I want to taper off this med.. > anyone tell me how to do it? this depression is the worst I have ever > had ! >            thanks ..a LOT

Response:

: I’d call your doc up right away…everyone has different side effects, and I : think depression can be a side effect to any drug we take. : : Don’t live with it–have your doc try a different pain killer. Neurontin is not a painkiller. WB :

: > I’m taking 300mg X 3 a day for cervical spine pain..and has anyone ever : > experienced SEVERE depression from this medication.?. I have been taking : > Neurontin for about a month and a half ..and this stuff has helped a : > little with the pain but this very bad depression is abnormal for me .. : > all I want to do is SIT and do nothing!..I want to taper off this med.. : > anyone tell me how to do it? this depression is the worst I have ever : > had ! : >            thanks ..a LOT : > : : — Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

Response:

>: I’d call your doc up right away…everyone has different side effects, and >I >: think depression can be a side effect to any drug we take. >: >: Don’t live with it–have your doc try a different pain killer. >Neurontin is not a painkiller. >WB

It’s prescribed my some doctors "off label" as a pain killer, specifically for neuropathy. Michele

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->: I’d call your doc up right away…everyone has different side effects, and >I >: think depression can be a side effect to any drug we take. >: >: Don’t live with it–have your doc try a different pain killer. >Neurontin is not a painkiller. >WB > It’s prescribed my some doctors "off label" as a pain killer, > specifically for neuropathy. > Michele

agreed, it’s helped my migraines, as well. Cat

Response:

I took Neurontin for awhile but had to discontinue it for this reason.  I got up to the same dose as you.  For an hour or so after taking it I was horribly depressed.  When I told my physician he discontinued the medicine. (I was taking it for nerve pain in legs from back injury.) My 14 year old son was taking Neurontin up until today as an adjunct (sp?) medication for bipolar disorder.  My wife took him to his psychiatrist today and it was discontinued for the same reason – for a few hours after taking the medicine he was severely depressed. I know others who have taken the medicine and haven’t had problems, but I will never take it again. Talk to your doctor (if you don’t have an appointment really soon, call him/her).  Severe depression is not something to mess around with. Take care! Martin – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’m taking 300mg X 3 a day for cervical spine pain..and has anyone ever > experienced SEVERE depression from this medication.?. I have been taking > Neurontin for about a month and a half ..and this stuff has helped a > little with the pain but this very bad depression is abnormal for me .. > all I want to do is SIT and do nothing!..I want to taper off this med.. > anyone tell me how to do it? this depression is the worst I have ever > had ! >            thanks ..a LOT

Response:

Off-label, it’s still not a pain killer.  It works prophylactically from all I’ve heard about it.  You can’t pick up a Neurontin script and pop one and make a headache or diabetic neuropathy go away.   It PREVENTS them, or prevents them from being so bad as before.  Even Imitrex stops the pain of a migraine too, but it’s not a painkiller either. It deals with the symptomsor cause of the headache, thereby easing the pain. A painkiller is something that KILLS or numbs the pain at the time of it happening, and only suppresses the symptom of pain, but does nothing to prevent it or to alter the cause of the pain in the first place.  A prophylactic prevents the pain from happening in the first place or prevents it from being more painful than it used to be.  And I don’t know what you’d call Imitrex, but it’s not a painkiller either. But off-label or on, Neurontin is NOT a "painkiller" and to call it so is inaccurate and misleading. WB

: >

: > : > >: I’d call your doc up right away…everyone has different side effects, and : > >I : > >: think depression can be a side effect to any drug we take. : > >: : > >: Don’t live with it–have your doc try a different pain killer. : > > : > >Neurontin is not a painkiller. : > > : > >WB : > : > It’s prescribed my some doctors "off label" as a pain killer, : > specifically for neuropathy. : > : > Michele : : agreed, it’s helped my migraines, as well. : : Cat — Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

Response:

Wellll WB…I somewhat have to disagree >It works prophylactically from all >I’ve heard about it.  You can’t pick up a Neurontin script and pop one and >make a headache or diabetic neuropathy go away.   It

For headaches you are correct…it does work prophylactically…however for neuropathy it actually does work as a pain reliever…not saying the neuropathy goes away..but the physical symptoms of it (ie pain) can be dramatically diminished..It is also used in this fashion for trigeminal neuralagia and "shingles" and quite successfully…In my "definition" this makes it a pain reliever ,,,not a preventative.. Hawk Eye

Response:

whoops  hit send too fast…again.. >But off-label or on, Neurontin is NOT a "painkiller" and to call it so is >inaccurate and misleading.

In the medical literature I read..Neurontin is definitely being called a "painkiller." rb Hawk Eye

Response:

WB I just looked Neurontin up in PDR.net… we are BOTH right…in a sense.. >It works prophylactically from all >I’ve heard about it.  You can’t pick up a Neurontin script and pop one and

prophylactic===prevention Neurontin does NOT prevent  neuropathy….nor does it do a thing for keeping it stable..or prevent the neuropathy from getting worse… What this med DOES is to "prevent pain related response to several models of neuropathic pain" (PDR) It also "decreases pain related response to peripheral inflammation"(PDR) Actually "mechanism of analgesic action is unknown"(PDR) yikes…no one is even too sure HOW or WHY this stuff works in humans!!!  PDR does list it tho for pain of "neuropathy"…tho not of headache prevention So….it DOES or can prevent headache..and it CAN "block neuropathic pain" response…but actually isn’t that the way opiates work too??? I mean by blocking pain response? >But off-label or on, Neurontin is NOT a "painkiller" and to call it so is >inaccurate and misleading.

again..partially true..tho what I read in the PDR sorta explains how it is… rb ps…it is actually being used MORE for pain,,then seizures!! Hawk Eye

Response:

I guess it’s not the first drug that they don’t really know how it works, all they know is it works, but it’s still mindblowing.  Not only can’t they say how it helps those with pain, but they also can’t say what makes it cause depression in some or the arm jerking I now get as a result of taking it!  So they say to take it but can’t really tell us what it’s doing to us. How can they say that in ten years someone taking it all along won’t start having weird problems as a result?  Surely they never studied it that long? Too strange for me.  Hey, but thanks for the info.  Now I’ve learned something new today.  First time in a long time! : ) WB

: WB : : I just looked Neurontin up in PDR.net… : : we are BOTH right…in a sense.. : : >It works prophylactically from all : >I’ve heard about it.  You can’t pick up a Neurontin script and pop one and : : prophylactic===prevention : : Neurontin does NOT prevent  neuropathy….nor does it do a thing for keeping it : stable..or prevent the neuropathy from getting worse… : : What this med DOES is to "prevent pain related response to several models of : neuropathic pain" (PDR) : : It also "decreases pain related response to peripheral inflammation"(PDR) : : Actually "mechanism of analgesic action is unknown"(PDR) : : yikes…no one is even too sure HOW or WHY this stuff works in humans!!! PDR : does list it tho for pain of "neuropathy"…tho not of headache prevention : : So….it DOES or can prevent headache..and it CAN "block neuropathic pain" : response…but actually isn’t that the way opiates work too??? I mean by : blocking pain response? : : >But off-label or on, Neurontin is NOT a "painkiller" and to call it so is : >inaccurate and misleading. : : again..partially true..tho what I read in the PDR sorta explains how it is… : : rb : : ps…it is actually being used MORE for pain,,then seizures!! : Hawk Eye — Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

Response:

  Here’s a discussion group/mailing list just for Neurontin: http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/archives/neurontin-l.html   Neurontin is a pain stopper for me, whether it’s classified as a painkiller or no. HTH! Eased Up Hugs from Rosie — "If you wanna get it done, you gotta fight for yourself."  – Meat Loaf, Bat Outta Hell II

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I guess it’s not the first drug that they don’t really know how it works, > all they know is it works, but it’s still mindblowing.  Not only can’t they > say how it helps those with pain, but they also can’t say what makes it > cause depression in some or the arm jerking I now get as a result of taking > it!  So they say to take it but can’t really tell us what it’s doing to us. > How can they say that in ten years someone taking it all along won’t start > having weird problems as a result?  Surely they never studied it that long? > Too strange for me.  Hey, but thanks for the info.  Now I’ve learned > something new today.  First time in a long time! : ) > WB

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Off-label, it’s still not a pain killer.  It works prophylactically from all >I’ve heard about it.  You can’t pick up a Neurontin script and pop one and >make a headache or diabetic neuropathy go away.   It PREVENTS them, or >prevents them from being so bad as before.  Even Imitrex stops the pain of a >migraine too, but it’s not a painkiller either. It deals with the symptomsor >cause of the headache, thereby easing the pain. >A painkiller is something that KILLS or numbs the pain at the time of it >happening, and only suppresses the symptom of pain, but does nothing to >prevent it or to alter the cause of the pain in the first place.  A >prophylactic prevents the pain from happening in the first place or prevents >it from being more painful than it used to be.  And I don’t know what you’d >call Imitrex, but it’s not a painkiller either. >But off-label or on, Neurontin is NOT a "painkiller" and to call it so is >inaccurate and misleading.

From my perspective, you’re splitting hairs. Also from the perspective of my neurologist <g>. Michele

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I took Neurontin for awhile but had to discontinue it for this reason.  I > got up to the same dose as you.  For an hour or so after taking it I was > horribly depressed.  When I told my physician he discontinued the medicine. > (I was taking it for nerve pain in legs from back injury.) > My 14 year old son was taking Neurontin up until today as an adjunct (sp?) > medication for bipolar disorder.  My wife took him to his psychiatrist today > and it was discontinued for the same reason – for a few hours after taking > the medicine he was severely depressed. > I know others who have taken the medicine and haven’t had problems, but I > will never take it again. > Talk to your doctor (if you don’t have an appointment really soon, call > him/her).  Severe depression is not something to mess around with. > Take care! > Martin > I’m taking 300mg X 3 a day for cervical spine pain..and has anyone ever > experienced SEVERE depression from this medication.?. I have been taking > Neurontin for about a month and a half ..and this stuff has helped a > little with the pain but this very bad depression is abnormal for me .. > all I want to do is SIT and do nothing!..I want to taper off this med.. > anyone tell me how to do it? this depression is the worst I have ever > had ! >            thanks ..a LOT

I wouldn’t call what I experienced severe depression, but I certainly did notice a lifting of my mood after I stopped a long course of Neurontin a couple of years ago. I am taking it again now, and I don’t notice any depression, but I am at a much lower doseage. I am going to taper off for a while to see if I see a change in my mood. I don’t want to keep taking it anyway since it does not do me any good that I can tell. RoryDog

Response:

> Here’s a discussion group/mailing list just for Neurontin: >http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/archives/neurontin-l.html >  Neurontin is a pain stopper for me, whether it’s classified as a >painkiller or no.

thanks Rosie..from the ‘other one’ rb Hawk Eye

Response:

>From my perspective, you’re splitting hairs. Also from the perspective

WB admits that now…after I looked the drug up in PDR>net…but perhaps now we are all wondering what the hell we are doing taking something no one knows how it works!!! rb Hawk Eye

Response:

>How can they say that in ten years someone taking it all along won’t start >having weird problems as a result?  Surely they never studied it that long?

WB for sure for sure!!!  perhaps you recall the hoopla over Premarin this summer???  And we’ve been sucking that down for decades!! Me thinks that whatever the intervention…medicinal…diagnostic..even surgical..somewhere down the road "they" will shake their heads and say "hmmm" maybe we shouldn’t have done that!!! Remember medicine is an ART not a science!! actually I am glad you posted that..as it forced me to look it up..so we BOTH learned something (yeah I know..hard to believe…eh??) rb Hawk Eye

Response:

>From my perspective, you’re splitting hairs. Also from the perspective > WB admits that now…after I looked the drug up in PDR>net…but perhaps now we > are all wondering what the hell we are doing taking something no one knows how > it works!!! > rb > Hawk Eye

Who the hell cares????  I know I don’t!  All I know is that it works, I don’t need to know how or why.  I just want my pain to go away and the Neurontin helps.  I couldn’t give a rat’s ass if we call it a painkiller or

Response:

>I’m taking 300mg X 3 a day for cervical spine pain..and has anyone ever >experienced SEVERE depression from this medication.?. I have been taking >Neurontin for about a month and a half ..and this stuff has helped a >little with the pain but this very bad depression is abnormal for me .. >all I want to do is SIT and do nothing!..I want to taper off this med.. >anyone tell me how to do it? this depression is the worst I have ever >had ! >           thanks ..a LOT

IBefore you discontinue the neurontin, please talk with your doctor.  Neurontin is not to be stopped abruptly, it needs to be tapered.  Good luck to you! Sue We survive together or not at all.

Response:

>Neurontin helps.  I couldn’t give a rat’s ass if we call it a painkiller or

but I’d rather have a gumdrop..green ones please!!!  I agree totally tho…it sure does help my sleep… rb Hawk Eye

Response:

>Who the hell cares????  I know I don’t!  All I know is that it works, I >don’t need to know how or why.  I just want my pain to go away and the >Neurontin helps.  I couldn’t give a rat’s ass if we call it a painkiller or

Be nice, Hawkeye was only trying to help. Sue We survive together or not at all.

Response:

>Be nice, Hawkeye was only trying to help. >Sue >We survive together or not

Sue …I don’t think she was trying to be mean…and I did get her drift… rb unless I was flamed and missed it!! Hawk Eye

Response:

   Wedgieboy writes: Neurontin is not a pain killer. WB

I’d call your doc up right away…everyone has different side effects, and I think depression can be a side effect to any drug we take. Don’t live with it–have your doc try a different pain killer. >>>>>>>>No, WB, "technically" Neurontin isn’t a "pain killer"…it is

an anti-convulsant, BUT it is now being used for Neurological symptoms. For me, it has greatly helped my Sciatic pain & nerve spasms. So it actually works AS a pain killer for nerve pain. It’s been a God-send to me, when my butt feels like there’s a "meathook" in it…LOL! Peace!Stacie

Response:

   CAT says: It’s prescribed my some doctors "off label" as a pain killer, specifically for neuropathy. Michele agreed, it’s helped my migraines, as well. Cat >>Cat, as a preventative for Migraines or when the Migraine hits? if

take only 900mg/day…thanx! Would be GREAT if it helped! I can’t take ANY of the "triptan" meds. Peace~Stacie

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I jsut started on neurontin last week in the with the goal of being takin off >  depakote ina month. I am a rapid cycler and depakote didn’t seem to be doing >  the job. > I am up to 300 mg twice a day and will increase to 300 mg three times a day >  next week. > My problem; I can’t stay awake and I have diahrrea, nausea and stomach cramps a >  few hours after the medication is taken. Will this continue or subside. > Anyone with this problem, please let me know. I’m not sure if I should call my >  pdoc. I think he will want to stop the med and I was Sooo sure this was going >  to be my wonder drug. It will be a real bummer if it isn’t. > Peace, Barb

from my reading these are transitory problems that should resolve quickly. your should contact your pdoc and discuss this. certainly let him know that you want to continue the neurontin and find out if the problems subside. best of luck

Response:

> I jsut started on neurontin last week in the with the goal of being takin off >  depakote ina month. I am a rapid cycler and depakote didn’t seem to be doing >  the job. > I am up to 300 mg twice a day and will increase to 300 mg three times a day >  next week. > My problem; I can’t stay awake and I have diahrrea, nausea and stomach cramps a >  few hours after the medication is taken. Will this continue or subside. > Anyone with this problem, please let me know. I’m not sure if I should call my

  pdoc. I think he will want to stop the med and I was Sooo sure this was going >  to be my wonder drug. It will be a real bummer if it isn’t. > Peace, Barb

from my reading all of your problems can be (and probably are) side effects of the neurontin.  the side effects are supposed to subside after a few weeks. most people experience few if any side effects.  i hope yours will pass quickly, i have found neurontin to be a wonder drug. i have only small mood fluctuations and don’t feel "flat" as i did on depakote ( nor psychotic, courtesy of lamictal.) do contact your doctor, maybe you need to start with a smaller dose. let him know that you want to continue and see if the problems stop. best of luck.

Response:

I jsut started on neurontin last week in the with the goal of being takin off  depakote ina month. I am a rapid cycler and depakote didn’t seem to be doing  the job. I am up to 300 mg twice a day and will increase to 300 mg three times a day  next week. My problem; I can’t stay awake and I have diahrrea, nausea and stomach cramps a  few hours after the medication is taken. Will this continue or subside. Anyone with this problem, please let me know. I’m not sure if I should call my  pdoc. I think he will want to stop the med and I was Sooo sure this was going  to be my wonder drug. It will be a real bummer if it isn’t. Peace, Barb

Response:

Question:

It is true that some people may flare in their psoriasis of the skin from some NSAIDs, and naprosyn (generic name naproxen) is an NSAID.  However, this is not an automatic thing.   Not everybody will flare from every NSAID.  Some people may not flare from NSAIDs at all.  I am one of these.  For me, strange though it may sound, I actually get a huge amount of improvement in my skin from NSAIDs. When my PA (psoriatic arthritis) first flared up big time, my only treatment was NSAID treatment, and that alone brought my decades long 60 – 70% coverage of psoriasis down to about 10%.  I know that doesn’t make sense, but it is how it worked for me. Of course NSAIDs do have lots of other serious potential side effects, so do watch that you do not mix NSAIDs, that you take only with a full meal, and that you watch for signs of bleeding or pain in the stomach or intestinal tract. As to the safety of tylenol or other drugs containing acetaminophen, this is a real drug and should NEVER be taken without care as to the total daily dose you are getting. The difference between the therapeutic dose and the dose that can cause severe liver damage is very small, so keep track of how much you take in a day and NEVER exceed the recommended daily dose. If you drink alcohol regularly CUT THE DAILY MAXIMUM DOSE YOU MAY TAKE IN HALF.  The most common cause of liver damage resulting in needing a liver transplant is taking an overdose of acetaminophen (tylenol or combinations of other drugs with acetaminophen). Don’t forget to add into the daily dose you are taking any OTHER drugs you may be taking that also contain acetaminophen.  Ex:  vicodin, percocet, darvocet, ultracet, etc, as well as many over-the-counter drugs like cough med’s, headache preparations, etc. As to other drugs that may exacerbate psoriasis, I have saved the following information from Dr. Susan Hoch, a practicing rheumatologist and professor of rheumatology in Philadelphia: You bring up a good point of what drugs may exacerbate psoriasis. The Plaquenil(hydroxychloroquine) exacerbation of psoriasis is well known to rheumatologists. The exacerbation of psoriasis by beta blockers is less well known as it is hidden in the dermatology literature and I doubt that your GP has the time to read such specialty journals. So to help him or her out, here are some references. You may wish to go to PubMed, which is at the Web Site of the National Library of Medicine to print out the abstracts yourself. That URL is ncbi.nlm.nih.gov. 1. Wolf R et al. Inducition of psoriasiform changes in guinea pig skin by propranolol. International Journal of Dermatology 33:811-814, Nov 1994 Beta blockers given orally to guinea pigs alone do not cause these changes. However, when the oral propranolol is combined with a weekly injection of Freund’s adjuvant, the guinea pigs get psoriasiform lesions. 2. Halevy, S and Livni E. Psoriasis and psoriasiform eruptions associated with propranolol-the role of an immunologic mechanism. Archives of Dermatological Research 283:472-473, 1991 3. Heng MV, Heng MK. Beta-adrenergic an tagonist-induced psoriasiform eruption. Clinical and Pathogenetic aspects. Internation Journal of Dermatology. 27:619-627, Nov 1988 And the best of all a general review article on this whole subject. Abel EA et al. Drugs in the Exacerbation of Psoriasis Journal of the American Academy of Dermatology 15(5 Pt 1):1007-1022, 1986 This is a review with 129 references. Hope this is helpful. DrSusan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Be Aware of Medications >That May Cause Psoriasis to Flare >There are a few medicines prescribed for other health problems that can >worsen psoriasis for some people. They are listed below. If your >psoriasis is flaring, review the medications you are using for >arthritis, blood pressure, migraine or other pain, tremors, malaria, or >liver or intestinal infections caused by microscopic protozoa. (Giardia >is one example of a protozoal infection. Malaria is another.) >The following medicines may cause psoriasis to flare: >Antimalarials – A medical report has shown that 31 percent of those >with psoriasis who used antimalarials such as quinacrine, chloroquine >and hydroxychloroquine experienced an "acute generalized eruption" of >psoriasis. It usually develops two to three weeks after the drug is >taken. Although all three types have been implicated in causing adverse >incidents, hydroxychloroquine has a lower incidence, 19 percent. >Doxycycline may be an alternative. >Lithium – Lithium, a drug used to treat manic depression and other >psychiatric disorders, aggravates psoriasis in about 50 percent of >those who take it. It is difficult to completely clear a person taking >lithium. Sometimes reducing the dose of lithium may help to improve >psoriasis. Several alternatives to lithium exist. Consult your >physician. >Inderal and other beta blocker medications – Researchers have reported >that Inderal aggravates psoriasis in approximately 25 to 30 percent of >patients. It is not known if all beta blocker high blood pressure >medications worsen psoriasis, but they may have that potential. >Sometimes other medications can be substituted; however, it is possible >to clear psoriasis even if you must stay on the beta blocker.

Best regards,

Response:

I strongly suspected that my initial onset of Diabetes (Adult onset Type II) triggered some of my psoriasis on my fingers and some on my face.  It was too coincidental to me that soon after my diabetes diagnosis that the P started appearing, and in the case of my bleeding finger tips and splitting finger nails, it was quite painful. One diabetes doctor told me that one possible reason for this, in my case anyway, that my onset of diabetes caused my blood-sugar levels to rise to very high levels and the body’s natural defense mechanism for this is trying to pass the excess sugar in the blood by urinating it out.  The body attemps to find any and all water content it can find to help send to the bladder to "flush out" the excess sugar.  And during this course, if the body finds that the fingers or other extremities provide a source of fluids/water, then it ciphens water from those areas and that leads to the drying out of that area.  The diabetes can weaken other vital defenses too like the immune system that compound the problem (or led credibility to this theory). Regards, Rick   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Can anyone tell me if certain meds can trigger P ? What are some of these > meds, and is naprosyn one of them ? > dennis g

Response:

Thanks to all who have responded to my post regarding  naprosyn and it’s possible triggering of P. dennis g

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’m pretty sure I read somewhere it is a general trigger. > Use tylenol instead. > ok thank you

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Thanks to all who have responded to my post regarding  naprosyn and it’s > possible triggering of P. > dennis g > > I’m pretty sure I read somewhere it is a general trigger. > > Use tylenol instead. >    were younger is it possible that strep throat occurs when you pick up a >       cold or infection i find the moment istart medication rualide.Mayebe >      naprosyn or any antibiotics out comes the psoraisis and as i am a non >  insulan diabetic and suffer now and again from asthma  maye ber its true >         what our friend is saying about diabetes no one knows if they have >   diabetes untill they check it out with a simple test.. thats how i found >        it.is it true that lots of ps sufferers have diabetes???.. how many >  psoraisis patients have had kidney stones ??Sea salt water is supposed to >     be good ??Whats happening to the new amevive  drug has anyone tried it >   yet    .with all the repetative mail coming in who has  actualy been 100 >                                            per cent cured.this group needs >positive feed back and cures .Dav is crap .all the steroids thgin the > skin andlight treat ment  cyclos in  meth tex ate and tigee son etc etc > all harm you and cost you  megabucks over your life time all meds and > speciaists who prescribe the same ointments more than threetimes should be > sued by this group as they are charging you for the same old treatment > over your life time . act now and mail back if you think they are ripping > you off they should be struck off iff they are  kind regards to all > DAVIDDDIOOOOOOOOOO

Response:

> Can anyone tell me if certain meds can trigger P ? What are some of these > meds, and is naprosyn one of them ? > dennis g

Is Naprosyn the same as Naproxin? I take a 500 mg twice daily for generative arthritis and have noticed on increase in my numbers. I was taking it only when the joint pain got real bad, but my doctor advised me to take it twice a day, every day along with my Glucosomine/Chongroitan (or however you spell it). Some people have asked about that causing elevated numbers too. I guess that is one reason we so often say, "YMMV". Neither one has caused me any problems with my BG at all. Oh, in another answer I noticed someone recommended Tylenol to you. Before taking it on an ongoing basis I would advise checking with your doctor. It has been shown to cause liver damage in some patients, according to what my doctor says. He has told me to use it only very sparingly and very seldom. Best of luck to you. Chuck T2 9/96

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Can anyone tell me if certain meds can trigger P ? What are some of these > meds, and is naprosyn one of them ? > dennis g > Is Naprosyn the same as Naproxin? I take a 500 mg twice daily for > generative > arthritis and have noticed on increase in my numbers. I was taking it only > when the joint pain got real bad, but my doctor advised me to take it twice > a > day, every day along with my Glucosomine/Chongroitan (or however you spell > it). Some people have asked about that causing elevated numbers too. I > guess > that is one reason we so often say, "YMMV". Neither one has caused me any > problems with my BG at all. > Oh, in another answer I noticed someone recommended Tylenol to you. Before > taking it on an ongoing basis I would advise checking with your doctor. It > has been shown to cause liver damage in some patients, according to what my > doctor says. He has told me to use it only very sparingly and very seldom. > Best of luck to you. > Chuck T2 9/96

Oops. Sorry. When I first wrote this I had just checked alt.support.diabetes since I have that too. As for whether or not Naproxin has aggravated my psoriasis, I would say I really don’t think so. I am sure I would have noticed it by now, and my dermatologist has a list of all medications I take, including supplements. He would have told me if any of them might aggravate it. He has told me that a couple of meds that I take may make my skin more light sensitive and I may burn more easily in my UVB cabinet. I hope this is of some help to you. Chuck Living with Psoriasis all of my 62 years.

Response:

Yes they are the same.  That’s the problem with p. and  arthritis.  What’s good for the arthritis is not necessarily good for the p.  By the way, I was taking Tylenol like candy  when I was pregnant for major headaches (under doctor’s orders – she told me not to worry about effects on me or the baby) and have never had any side effects.  And the baby was and is still fine. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Can anyone tell me if certain meds can trigger P ? What are some of these > meds, and is naprosyn one of them ? > dennis g > Is Naprosyn the same as Naproxin? I take a 500 mg twice daily for generative > arthritis and have noticed on increase in my numbers. I was taking it only > when the joint pain got real bad, but my doctor advised me to take it twice a > day, every day along with my Glucosomine/Chongroitan (or however you spell > it). Some people have asked about that causing elevated numbers too. I guess > that is one reason we so often say, "YMMV". Neither one has caused me any > problems with my BG at all. > Oh, in another answer I noticed someone recommended Tylenol to you. Before > taking it on an ongoing basis I would advise checking with your doctor. It > has been shown to cause liver damage in some patients, according to what my > doctor says. He has told me to use it only very sparingly and very seldom. > Best of luck to you. > Chuck T2 9/96

Response:

Can anyone tell me if certain meds can trigger P ? What are some of these meds, and is naprosyn one of them ? dennis g

Response:

Ibuprofen is a trigger. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Can anyone tell me if certain meds can trigger P ? What are some of these > meds, and is naprosyn one of them ? > dennis g

Response:

> Ibuprofen is a trigger.

Really? Can this tiggering be different in each person?

Response:

I’m pretty sure I read somewhere it is a general trigger. Use tylenol instead. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Ibuprofen is a trigger. > Really? > Can this tiggering be different in each person?

Response:

> I’m pretty sure I read somewhere it is a general trigger. > Use tylenol instead.

ok thank you

Response:

Question:

Thanks, TK…   I appreciate everything….especially the hugs.  I need all the hugs I can get right now.  :)      {{{{{{TK}}}}}}     Having a little bit of a hard time, but I’m dealing with it, ya know. I got my feelings hurt a little when Barbara didn’t respond to my post. Silly as hell, I know, but I guess I was trying to help. I saw where she replied to the others but not to mine and I was the first one to reply to her post I believe. That just all goes back to my not feeling "good enough" for others I suppose. But I’ll be ok. Maybe she’s planning on posting and just hasn’t or maybe she wants to write to me personally and hasn’t had time…who knows… I just need to cool my jets. Hell, maybe she won’t write at all…maybe I need to stop worrying about it and try to help more than just her!!! See, it’s silly shit like that….that I get so hung up over and caught up in. And I realize that it doesn’t even really matter!!! As long as she gets help from someone…ya know???  UGH, that’s why I hate this disease!!! Anyway…thanks again for understanding and listening to my May Angels Watch and Keep You, AmysAngels

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "AmysAngels" wrote > Ya know I’m getting the feeling that I’m manic AND depressed at the same > time! What a freakin’ concept, huh? I’m not really sure that’s what it is, > but it’s the ugly face of mania that makes me frustrated, disappointed, > disgusted, irritable, and even violent if something strikes me just the > right way, and I know that either when I’m on my way down toward > depression > or if I am on my way up from a deep, suicidal depression I always get > these > same exact feelings. So I guess I’m equating them with depression when in > reality they are stemming from the mania instead. > Yeah as several other people already have mentioned this sounds like > classical mixed episodes… I have them too – the agitation is terrible… > (( > {{{{{{{ amy }}}}}} > The reason they are stemming from the mania is because I can’t get my > brain > to slow the hell down for NOTHING!!!!  My house is an absolute wreck and > all > the little people in my mind want me to do something different. The > biggest > problem is that they all want me to do it all at the same freakin’ time!! > My > brain’s going so fast it’s like I took an overdose of speed and God didn’t > see it fit for my heart to explode over it, so my gray matter is paying > the > price for it!!! > I get this intense extreme turbo feeling, mind racing, cant slow down, > agitated energy crawling up and down my skin, feeling like I’m overloaded > electrically. Cant sit still, want to rip my hear out, bang my head against > the wall. Talk talk and talk, move around, twich. Irritated, agitated > frustrated. It’s so f*cking painful ( I know how you feel hon… ( > {{{{{{{ amy }}}}}} >  I’ve known I was bipolar > since I was 16 and I was misdiagnosed by a  psychiatrist whom I’d been > seeing from the age of 16-26..which is my current age. He assumed (because > depresstion ALONE is his specialty and I’m sure he was just hurtin’ for my > money!!) that I was just depressed and no future underlying problems > needed > to be dealt with. So when I told him that I thought I was bipolar at 16 he > totally shot that into the water and that was basically the end of it > until > recently. Anyway, I’m glad that I have a diagnosis that I can at least > live > with and I know that I’m bipolar and that I wasn’t "crazy" in thinking > that > I was manic-depressive all those years even as a child. > I’m glad you’ve been able to find out what your disorder is about, and thta > your diagnosis has been corrected. > Thanks everyone in advance for any help, advice, or if you have any > questions feel free to ask them. I’ll be happy to answer them as best way > I > can. > Keep posting hon > Lots of hugs, > TK

Response:

"AmysAngels" wrote > Thanks, TK…   I appreciate everything….especially the hugs.  I need all > the hugs I can get right now.  :)      {{{{{{TK}}}}}}     Having a little > bit of a hard time, but I’m dealing with it, ya know.

So sorry to hear that hon… How are things today…? Wanna talk about what’s difficult at the moment? *

Question:

Hi, I have been diagnosed bipolar mixed and after many tries have not responded to meds.  I was wondering if those of you out there who are bipolar mixed and have responded to meds would be willing to share your experiences. Thanks very much, Simpleman

Response:

avoid anti depressants and serongenit anti psychostics such as risperdal.. also be wary of lamictal and topamax as they can cause mania. Diet exercise and meditation can go a long ways towards helping stabilize your moods. visit http://www.psycheducation.org  and check out his article an anti-depressants and bipolar disorder. What to do when antidepressants make it worse — yet depressed Q: My 10 year old son has been on meds for BP for 2 years. He becomes very activated (manic) when put on even the smallest dose of an anti-depressant. He takes two mood stabilizers as well as Lithium. My question is: What can we do when he becomes severly depressed? He becomes suicidal at times and requires immediate intervention. Dear Tina — This is an unfortunately common dilemma.  In adults, here’s what I do: add more mood stabilizer (yep, even if the person’s already on several).  Or rather, one optimizes each, then adds another if absolutely necessary.  What’s "optimize" mean? First, make sure than none of the mood stabilizers is one that’s been associated with causing hypomania.  Yes, this occurs: Neurontin is the worst in this respect, lamotrigine also implicated in this way, topiramate probably also capable, Risperidone fairly widely accepted as commonly causing this problem, and even Zyprexa more rarely associated.  That leaves lithium, Depakote and carbamazepine as basically the only really secure options. Second, make sure lithium is at the highest blood level he can safely tolerate.  "Safely" means no higher than 1.1 mmol/L, because more is too close to too much.  But if he’s 0.9 or less, then there’s a little room to go up, as long as he’s monitored very closely to make sure the level doesn’t come out higher than 1.1.  Lithium is the best "antidepressant" we’ve got that won’t make things worse.   "Tolerate" means that even a lower blood level may be the maximum, if he gets too much in the way of side effects at higher doses. Third, maximize non-medication modalities: regular exercise is an antidepressant of high quality — at least in adults, which may actually also have mood stabilizing properties (no data, my observations).  Regular hours is possibly pretty crucial.  The NIMH stabilized a guy with rapid cycling, not responsive to medication approaches, by putting him in a dark room every night at 9 pm for several months (enforced rest/darkness). There’s an elaborate explanation for why this restores more normal sleep cycles, but it sure worked for this guy, so I routinely recommend regular schedules (especially sleep) for may patients with bipolar disorder, especially if they have rapid cycling. Fourth, check for other causes of cycling.  First on that list is antidepressants: if used at all, it must be at much lower than usual doses, and for very brief periods (I’ve given my most brittle patient only two days of Risperidone in a row, at 0.25mg which is micro-dosing, and seen clear antidepressant response, where more causes her to become hypomanic).  Other causes include steroid inhalers, and stress.  I list that last because it’s the hardest to control, obviously.  The illness creates its own stress, as you know. Sometimes marital or family therapy can lower the stress level in a household.   Good luck. Dr. Phelps >Hi, >I have been diagnosed bipolar mixed and after many tries have not responded >to meds.  I was wondering if those of you out there who are bipolar mixed >and have responded to meds would be willing to share your experiences. >Thanks very much, >Simpleman

– C/S/X Consumer/Survivor/Ex-Patient; a progressive term, in that one begins with the illusion of being a "consumer," is subjected to one or more of the horrors of psychiatric/therapeutic abuse and becomes a "survivor" (if he’s lucky), and quickly realizes that the best way in which to extend his survival and avoid a repetition of the nightmare is to remain permanently an "EX-Patient."

Response:

Question:

>Until a much better understanding of the brain is achieved, I think we >must consider all current treatment approaches as purely >"experimental."  And for that reason alone I think any and all >patients should be allowed to refuse to agree to current treatment >methods.  Not everyone wants to be a guinea pig for experiments using >potentially harmful drugs that have been shown, at best, to be >marginally effective!

I agree.. I went nuts on Paxil so was tagged with a bipolar dx and then they gave me Risperal that makes me manic an psychotic and a myriad of other drugs that gave me mental symptoms after three years of that my mental condition got so bad that they then tagged me with a schizoaffective dx. One day I woke up and said "how did this happen"  and why is it that with all this "treatment" my "illness" is getting worse and worse and why can’t they run a test to prove that I have any illness?   Oh but the therp had a pat answer sometimes biploar and schizoaffective don’t strike until you’re in your 35’s.. but this is rare and I did not accept the answer.  I wondered to myelf "is my drug my problem" what a daring thing to think while being brainwashed that I was SICK very sick and needed psychiatric drugs and psychiatry for life. I did some research and tapered myself off all my meds and did not tell anyone I had gone off them until several months had gone by without an episode.  I did so well off meds that my parents and grandparents commented on how much better I was doing.. that was when I broke the news to them that I went of my meds two months ago.  No on could argue that I should be back on them after seeing how much better I did off them. My therp the last time I saw her told me how happy she is with all the progress I have made since I quit taking meds.  When I first told her I had gone off them she wanted me back on them NOW and when I had my first difficulty off meds (still cycling from the meds) she wanted me back on them.  But she has changed her tune now.  My psychiatrist of the last 7 months is open minded and does not try to convince me to take meds.  My therp repords to my psychiatrist that I am doing well off meds and that’s good enough for her. I now seriously question my dx of schizoaffective. I do belive I have some bipolar like traits.. flucutaions in mood an energy levels over the years and my manic reaction to Paxil, Risperdal, Wellbutrin and Lamictal. http://www.bipolarworld.net/Phelps/ph_2002/ph802.htm Q:  Wellbutrin; Movement Disorders & Psychosis I am wondering if wellbutrin could be the source of my movement disorder and my psychotic episode.  I was on Wellbutrin (for bipolar disorder) for one year.  During that year I rapid cycled and basically lived a very hellish life. I went off the Wellbutrin in January 2001. In Febuary 2001 I had my first ever psychotic episode and I started taking Serquel for it.  Exacly when this episode occured my movement disorder also started.  I had many delusion at the time but the biggest one what that voices were making my arms and legs jerk and twitch.  I know that was just a delusion now and am looking into the idea that I have a movement disorder. Now August of 2002 I still get these twitches.  It’s mostly in my right leg but sometimes it hits both shoulders at once, or both legs at once. It also affects my neck at times but this is more rare.  It’s a strong jerking movement and sometimes it hurts.  Coffee and wine seem to make the jerking worse.  I only get this twitching / jerking when I am relaxed and I can will it away for short periods of time. Anyway I’ve been reading that Wellbutrin affects Dopamine and I know that other drugs that affect Dopamine cause movement disorders and rebound psychosis.  So I am wondering if you think that Wellbutrin withdrawal could have made me psychotic and unmasked a movement disorder that was cause by Wellbutrin? I’ve been rediagnosed as schizoaffec tive bipolar type but I have been off all medications for 7 months and have not had any more psychosis and I’ve only had one mania and no depressions. I feel so much better off medications.  I exercise a lot and watch what I eat and go to therapy and do relaxation exercises. Thanks S Dear S — Congratulations on having found one mood stabilizer I wish I could get all my patients to take, namely exercise.  And on using relaxation exercises as well.   Your story is disturbing, partly because of the severity of what you’ve been through, and partly because I’ve not seen this before with Wellbutrin but I think the explanation you’ve come up with could be right.  I wonder if someone who specializes in Tourette’s disorder, particularly a researcher in this area, might be interested in your story at least if not be able to help somehow (as you might imagine though, one of the ways to help Tourette’s is with medications, including some of the medications you’re glad to be off…). Here’s a list of mood stabilizer options to be aware of if someday your own management is no longer enough to control your symptoms. Dr. Phelps >I still think that the manufacturers of psychiatric pharmaceuticals >should be paying patients to take them, rather than selling such drugs >to the patients.  Usually in experimental trials the patients are NOT >required to pay for their medications.  IMHO such experimental trials >should last for at least 50 or 100 years after the drug has been >approved for such trials by the FDA or other governing board.  Only >with such long-term studies can we be sure that there are no long-term >undesirable side-effects from such experimental medications.

– Diagnosis and treatment of mental problems have been subject to whim since shamans first rattled gourds over the heads of lunatics. Despite claims of scientific advances, that hasn’t changed.

Response:

>So my wish list to the good people who  are actively trying >to help  provide information where "real doctors" might be >found , is to somehow expand the list at least 10 fold or >maybe even a 100 fold  more.  Or does anyone know of such a >web site that has that?.   So that people might be  able to >find doctors who might be willing to provide treatment on >the basis that drugs are the "last" resort  rather than the >first resort.  And on the basis of "informed consent"  , >rather than drugs without  "informed "  or without >"consent"..

I could start a list of real doctors at http://www.shizoaffective.org If it were not for anti psychiatry web sites I might still be eating the meds and still be sick. My therp commented on how amazed and happy she is at my progress since coming off meds. She was against me coming off them (I went off them without consulting her) at first but now that she see’s what the drugs did to me and how well I am now she thinks differently. She now admits to believing that the drugz hurt me. Paul Montgomery, President Progressive Gauging & Trolls Inc. Wytheville VA.

Response:

>How horrific it is to see how someone like yourself could be >"drug attacked "  by the doctors so many times in your life. >First with Haldo etc as a teen, then as an adult etc and >even more than that.. >Your efforts  of yourself and other C/S/X oriented people to >tell others about the drugs and to try to fight against >forced drugging are  highly appreciated. by some of us who >lurk a lot an post occasionally  

Thank you.  I see myself as an advocate for mentally ill. — DSM IV is the fabrication upon which psychiatry seeks acceptance by medicine in general. Insiders know it is more a political than scientific document. To its credit it says so –Loren R. Mosher, M.D.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->1. Doctors give drugs. Don’t go to a doctor with a (minor) problem if you >don’t want drugs. >2. The Internet, and libraries, and pharmacies, etc. are chock full of any >information you could possibly need to assess, for your own personal >situation, whether or not to take/keep taking the drugs. > So the particular point I was trying to make in that item > was more relative to the  mental health "system",  where > there are people who see doctors all the time that have not > had prior experience or knowledge and end up with the > drugs..   Comes back to a wish list where the wish would be > that doctors would be better informed themselves  in > addition would be willing to do more informing, and finally > be willing to work or the basis of informed consent rather > than demands.

Ahhh, so the *system* is problematic. I’ve always believed so, myself, yet everyone seems so keen on blaming the doctors. It’s not the doctors who are the problems at all (presuming reasonably competent doctors), it is the accountants. The accountants have determined what is cost-effective, and that’s all an individual can expect. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->1. If you want alternative treatment, you need to see a practioner of >alternative treatment. Expecting a M.D. to give you those options which are >not part of his/her training is somewhat wishful thinking. >Don’t ask a plumber to do your carpentry. > No disagreement on that point either > Just seems like the end result of what many of us here on > the internet have posted as our perceptions  as  an  "over > dependence on drugs" . Where the  mental health system has > actually progressed so far as to make it the exception, > rather than the rule to get treatment without drugs. Even > when insurance might have run out and even when the person > thinks enough of the therapy as to having been willing to > pay for it if there is no forced drugging potential..

Ahhh, so the *system* is problematic. I’ve always believed so, myself, yet everyone seems so keen on blaming the doctors. It’s not the doctors who are the problems at all (presuming reasonably competent doctors), it is the accountants. The accountants have determined what is cost-effective, and that’s all an individual can expect. Do you not believe that a doctor with unlimited resources would be happy to provide each patient with optimal care?

Response:

Send a link and/or page on Laura’s Law please. Thanks.

Response:

… > Do you not believe that a doctor with unlimited resources would be happy to > provide each patient with optimal care?

I think too little is known, currently, about the brain, for any psy-doc to provide a patient with optimal care, regardless of resources (dollars, research, etc.) "thrown at" the problem. (Basically this necessarily implies that psy-docs are idiots as far as their profession is concerned — they only know what is known, not what is needed in order to care skillfully for patients.  That’s why they keep using this "trial and error" approach with medications — because their profession lacks the diagnostic tools and understanding of the operation of the brain to make a precise diagnosis and to develop a precise drug and/or surgery to produce the necessary change.  It may be decades or even centuries in the future before our understanding of the brain is sufficient to try to diagnose and correct conditions that are appropriately named "mental illnesses".  I am not sure that we SHOULD BE correcting conditions that are INAPPROPRIATELY named "mental illnesses" — such as passive-aggressive behaviour, or unusual imaginative ability: we need to allow some variability in the life of human beings; we should not force everyone to adhere to a narrow range of human behaviours.  We don’t want Orwell’s "1984"!) I don’t think a lack of "resources" is the problem.  I think the problem lies in the infancy of scientific efforts to understand the human brain.  Psychiatry still seems to be at the stage that medicine was before discovering bacteria, viruses, etc., and their involvement in infections and disease. Until a much better understanding of the brain is achieved, I think we must consider all current treatment approaches as purely "experimental."  And for that reason alone I think any and all patients should be allowed to refuse to agree to current treatment methods.  Not everyone wants to be a guinea pig for experiments using potentially harmful drugs that have been shown, at best, to be marginally effective! I still think that the manufacturers of psychiatric pharmaceuticals should be paying patients to take them, rather than selling such drugs to the patients.  Usually in experimental trials the patients are NOT required to pay for their medications.  IMHO such experimental trials should last for at least 50 or 100 years after the drug has been approved for such trials by the FDA or other governing board.  Only with such long-term studies can we be sure that there are no long-term undesirable side-effects from such experimental medications. Paying patients to take the drugs may also reduce the marketing efforts of some of the manufacturers, for it will remove the financial incentive to increase drug "sales".  Then drug development might occur out of humanitarian considerations, rather than financial considerations.

Response:

Q:  I

Question:

>>Wow.. sad story.. I hope you can get some of your memory back.. I’m 7 months drug free but >my short term memory is still a bit scrambled.. it sucks.. my memory used to be very sharp >too. >Does it get better?  They don’t tell people this stuff when the >prescribe the stuff like it is candy. >Loev, >Ms Pants

I don’t know if the memory comes back or not.

Response:

stop your fucking crossposting – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>Wow.. sad story.. I hope you can get some of your memory back.. I’m 7 months drug free but >>my short term memory is still a bit scrambled.. it sucks.. my memory used to be very sharp >>too. >Does it get better?  They don’t tell people this stuff when the >prescribe the stuff like it is candy. >Loev, >Ms Pants >I don’t know if the memory comes back or not.

Response:

www.antipsychiatry.org revised 1/20/2000 Book Review Your Drug May Be Your Problem: How and Why to Stop Taking Psychiatric Drugs by Peter R. Breggin, M.D. & David Cohen, Ph.D. Perseus Books – Reading, Massachusetts – 1999 reviewed by Douglas A. Smith If you need specific advice about how to stop taking one or more psychiatric drugs, this is the book to read. In this respect, this book fills in a gap left in other books by Dr. Peter Breggin I have read, including Psychiatric Drugs: Hazards to the Brain (1983), Toxic Psychiatry (1991), and Talking Back to Prozac (199 . In this book Drs. Breggin & Cohen also make clear they think the concept of "mental illness" is erroneous. For example, they repeatedly put the term mental illness in mocking quotation marks. They state clearly that in their opinion you are better off without psychiatric drugs, whatever your "psychiatric problem" may be: depression, manic-depressive mood swings, anxiety attacks, "schizophrenia" or psychosis, or anything else. In this book Drs. Breggin & Cohen review the reasons you should not be taking any kind of psychiatric drug: "No psychiatric drug has ever been tailored to a known biochemical derangement. … no biochemical imbalances have ever been documented with certainty in association with any psychiatric diagnosis. The hunt goes on for these illusive imbalances; but their existence is pure speculation, inspired by those who advocate drugs" (p. 35). "Although medication advocates often speak with seeming confidence about how psychiatric drugs can correct biochemical imbalances in the brain, they are merely indulging in pure speculation. There’s little evidence for the existence of any such imbalances and no way to demonstrate how drugs would affect them if they did exist" (p. 34). "Often, patients are told, ‘It’s biological and genetic.’ Never mind that there’s no substantial evidence that any psychiatric diagnoses have a physical basis" (p. 93). "Precisely because there is so little scientific backing for the use of psychiatric drugs, mystification and slogans are often communicated to doctors by drug advertising, and then to patients by doctors" (p. 112-123, underline added). "Indeed, we should suspect that any psychoactive drug – any drug that affects mental function – tends to produce irreversible changes in some if not most people. What hope can we have that bathing the brain in a psychiatric drug will actually improve the overall function of this mysterious organ? Almost none. In fact … most of what we know about the various neurotransmitters has been gathered by studying how psychiatric drugs disrupt or spoil their functioning" (p. 9 – underline added). "Advocates of psychiatric drugs often claim that the medications improve learning and the ability to benefit from psychotherapy, but the contrary is true. There are no drugs that improve mental function, self-understanding, or human relations. Any drug that affects mental processes does so by impairing them" (p. 97-9 . "Despite a hugely successful promotional campaign by drug companies and biological psychiatry, the effectiveness of most or all psychiatric drugs remains difficult to demonstrate. The drugs often prove no more effective than sugar pills, or placebos – and to accomplish even these limited positive results, the clinical trials and data that they generate typically have to be statistically manipulated" (p. 37). "But isn’t psychiatry science? Isn’t faith in psychiatry based on facts? On research? Can’t we ‘trust in research’? The sad truth is that, in the field of psychiatry, it is impossible to ‘trust in research.’ Nearly all of the research in this field is paid for by drug companies and conducted by people who will ‘deliver’ in the best way possible for those companies. … Sadly, even well-informed people too often put their faith in psychiatry and psychiatric research. It is the same as putting their faith in a drug company" (p. 189-190). "…emotional suffering cannot be dulled without harming other functions such as concentration, alertness, sensitivity, and self-awareness" (p. 36). "All psychiatric drugs can cause problems during withdrawal" (p. 16). And the longer you take a psychiatric drug, the more difficult your withdrawal will be. "…many adverse drug effects are difficult to distinguish from emotional problems" (p. 24). "Contrary to claims, neuroleptics have no specific effects on irrational ideas (delusions) or perceptions (hallucinations). Like all other psychiatric drugs, they have the same impact on healthy animals, healthy volunteers, and patients – namely, the production of apathy and indifference" (p. 77). Neuroleptic drugs cause brain damage evidenced by a movement disorder called tardive dyskinesia, but "Neuroleptics actually suppress the symptoms of tardive dyskinesia while the disease is developing. … The rates of TD [tardive dyskinesia] are extremely high. Many standard textbooks estimate a rate of 5% – 7% per year in healthy young adults [who are taking neuroleptic drugs]. The rate is cumulative so that 25% – 35% of patients [taking neuroleptics] will develop the disorder in 5 years of treatment. Among the elderly [taking neuroleptics], rates of TD reach 20% or more per year. For a variety of reasons, including the failure to include tardive akathisia in estimates, the actual rates are probably much higher for all patients" (p. 7 . So-called antipsychotic or neuroleptic drugs cause a fatal disease called neuroleptic malignant syndrome in up to 2.4% of people taking them. "Using a low-end rate of 1 percent, Maxmen and Ward (1995, p. 33) estimate that 1,000 – 4,000 deaths occur in America each year as a result of neuroleptic malignant syndrome. The actual number is probably much greater" (p. 79). Neuroleptic, also known as antipsychotic or major tranquilizer drugs "subject almost every system in the body to impairment. Research, including a recent study, indicates that these drugs are toxic to cells in general" (p. 81). Clozaril … was banned in some European countries because it caused so many fatalities; but the escalating power of drug companies subsequently led to its approval by the FDA" in the United States (p. 82). If you are pregnant, psychiatric drugs you take will cross into the baby’s bloodstream "and from there, to enter the unborn infant’s brain. Similarly, psychiatric drugs enter the mother’s milk and thus also affects the nursing infant’s brain" (p. 26). "…women who take lithium during pregnancy expose their infants to an increased rate of heart defects" (p. 26). "Some physicians try to reassure pregnant or nursing mothers about their baby’s safety while they are taking psychiatric drugs. But there is no scientific basis for offering this reassurance in regard to any drug that affects the brain" (p. 84). This book is a well-documented, well-written, recent (1999), expos

Question:

Okay, it is official. I am so damn confused by this group my head fell off. — Melinda =^..^= melsbasketcase(dot)tripod(dot)com angelfire(dot)com/zine/melsbasketcase

Response:

>Okay, it is official. I am so damn confused by this group my head fell off.

Surprising considering that you are drug free. Conclusion and Suggestions There is convincing evidence to indicate that long-term treatment with neuroleptic medication frequently produces persistent cognitive deficits, dementia and atrophy of the highest centres of the brain. In addition, there is some evidence that neuroleptics also produce a reactive tardive psychosis. There is little or no reason to believe that schizophrenia causes any of these adverse effects, especially dementia and brain atrophy. The most consistent information on prevalence has been generated by brain scans which measure brain atrophy. We can estimate a prevalence of 10-40% among neuroleptic-treated patients, increasing with duration of treatment and age. Even if the rate turns out to be in the lower range, we are confronted with an epidemic of iatrogenic brain damage of large proportions with serious consequences. Millions of patients, some with tardive dyskinesia and some without, have developed drug-induced damage to the higher brain and mental processes. The following steps are proposed. First, the threat of neuroleptic-induced persistent cognitive deficits, tardive dementia and brain atrophy should be recognised in the PDR and in drug company advertising. Second, along with TD, persistent cognitive deficits, tardive dementia and brain atrophy should become part of the standard informed consent warning given to patients and their families before the initiation of neuroleptic treatment. The general public should also be warned about the dangers of these widely used medications. Third, psychiatric textbooks (Nicholi, 1988; Talbot et al., 1988) and reviews should no longer relegate discussions of the issue to sections on schizophrenia and instead place them in their appropriate context among neuroleptic side effects. If textbooks and reviews consider the subject controversial, they should nonetheless present the problem as one of great importance. Fourth, future research should focus directly on neuroleptic-induced damage to the brain and mind. Fifth, the health professions are obliged to find and implement methods for the rehabilitation of persons suffering from iatrogenic brain damage from all sources. As a part of this, the growing movement surrounding the rehabilitation of head injury victims should be extended to encompass patients injured by neuroleptic treatment. Sixth, the threat of damage to the highest centres of the brain constitutes one more reason for a thoroughgoing re-evaluation of the assumptions behind the use of neuroleptics. Every effort must be made to curtail their use. Seventh, more attention should be given to non-pharmacological treatment alternatives utilising professionals (Breggin, 1980d; Karon and Vandenbos, 1981; Mosher and Burti, 1989j Walkenstein, 1972) as well as those utilising self-help groups (Chamberlin, 1978; Low, 1950; Zinman et al., 1987). Finally, the patient’s right to refuse treatment, well-established in general medicine, should be more thoroughly extended to psychiatry. The best safeguard against the abusive prescription of medication is a voluntary psychiatry based on informed consent. Never before in history has the psychiatric and medical profession been confronted with an iatrogenic tragedy of such proportions as the neuroleptic-induced epidemic of tardive dyskinesia, persistent cognitive deficits, tardive dementia, and brain atrophy. It is time for the profession to take responsibility for the damage it is inflicting on millions of patients throughout the world.

Response:

Lamictal is a medication used to treat bipolar disorder. buy lamictal and feel better today!

Question:

I never experienced the pounding, but the "whooshing" is my reminder that I have neglecte the paxil for several days.  Sort of like a shudder one might experience from having a fan blown in one’s ear.  How long it lasts, or if it ever goes away?  I don’t know.  I have been on paxil for 6 or 7 years.  I don’t get the rush anymore…….I need it to feel normal.  :)

Response:

>I never experienced the pounding, but the "whooshing" is my reminder >that I have neglecte the paxil for several days.  Sort of like a shudder >one might experience from having a fan blown in one’s ear.  How long it >lasts, or if it ever goes away?  I don’t know.  I have been on paxil for >6 or 7 years.  I don’t get the rush anymore…….I need it to feel >normal.  :)

Conclusion and Suggestions There is convincing evidence to indicate that long-term treatment with neuroleptic medication frequently produces persistent cognitive deficits, dementia and atrophy of the highest centres of the brain. In addition, there is some evidence that neuroleptics also produce a reactive tardive psychosis. There is little or no reason to believe that schizophrenia causes any of these adverse effects, especially dementia and brain atrophy. The most consistent information on prevalence has been generated by brain scans which measure brain atrophy. We can estimate a prevalence of 10-40% among neuroleptic-treated patients, increasing with duration of treatment and age. Even if the rate turns out to be in the lower range, we are confronted with an epidemic of iatrogenic brain damage of large proportions with serious consequences. Millions of patients, some with tardive dyskinesia and some without, have developed drug-induced damage to the higher brain and mental processes. The following steps are proposed. First, the threat of neuroleptic-induced persistent cognitive deficits, tardive dementia and brain atrophy should be recognised in the PDR and in drug company advertising. Second, along with TD, persistent cognitive deficits, tardive dementia and brain atrophy should become part of the standard informed consent warning given to patients and their families before the initiation of neuroleptic treatment. The general public should also be warned about the dangers of these widely used medications. Third, psychiatric textbooks (Nicholi, 1988; Talbot et al., 1988) and reviews should no longer relegate discussions of the issue to sections on schizophrenia and instead place them in their appropriate context among neuroleptic side effects. If textbooks and reviews consider the subject controversial, they should nonetheless present the problem as one of great importance. Fourth, future research should focus directly on neuroleptic-induced damage to the brain and mind. Fifth, the health professions are obliged to find and implement methods for the rehabilitation of persons suffering from iatrogenic brain damage from all sources. As a part of this, the growing movement surrounding the rehabilitation of head injury victims should be extended to encompass patients injured by neuroleptic treatment. Sixth, the threat of damage to the highest centres of the brain constitutes one more reason for a thoroughgoing re-evaluation of the assumptions behind the use of neuroleptics. Every effort must be made to curtail their use. Seventh, more attention should be given to non-pharmacological treatment alternatives utilising professionals (Breggin, 1980d; Karon and Vandenbos, 1981; Mosher and Burti, 1989j Walkenstein, 1972) as well as those utilising self-help groups (Chamberlin, 1978; Low, 1950; Zinman et al., 1987). Finally, the patient’s right to refuse treatment, well-established in general medicine, should be more thoroughly extended to psychiatry. The best safeguard against the abusive prescription of medication is a voluntary psychiatry based on informed consent. Never before in history has the psychiatric and medical profession been confronted with an iatrogenic tragedy of such proportions as the neuroleptic-induced epidemic of tardive dyskinesia, persistent cognitive deficits, tardive dementia, and brain atrophy. It is time for the profession to take responsibility for the damage it is inflicting on millions of patients throughout the world.

Response:

Greetings all, I’m a recently diagnosed bp II (finally, after years of taking standard antidepressants and having them not work) and have been taking Lamictal (75mg/2xday) for about six weeks.  Over the last three weeks, my doctor has been tapering me off of Paxil.  I stopped the Paxil on Wednesday of last week, and over the weekend started noticing this "whooshing" noise whenever I move my eyes back and forth.  I also noticed that it makes me momentarily dizzy and I feel this slight pounding in my head when this happens.  I’ve read in this newsgroup that both withdrawing from Paxil and starting Lamictal can have side-effects in line with these.  Is this more likely to be the Lamictal or the Paxil?  Do these symptoms go away?  I have a call into my pdoc, but haven’t heard anything back yet. I’m a programmer and this is *really* distracting.  Every time I move my eyes from one side of the screen to another I hear *whoosh*. Any help would really be appreciated…

Response:

Ok Shawnee, I know this is you. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Path: news.alt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.co m!not-for-mail >Newsgroups: alt.support.depression.manic >Organization: http://groups.google.com/ >Lines: 19 >NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.69.193.30 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Xref: news alt.support.depression.manic:266039 >Greetings all, >I’m a recently diagnosed bp II (finally, after years of taking >standard antidepressants and having them not work) and have been >taking Lamictal (75mg/2xday) for about six weeks.  Over the last three >weeks, my doctor has been tapering me off of Paxil.  I stopped the >Paxil on Wednesday of last week, and over the weekend started noticing >this "whooshing" noise whenever I move my eyes back and forth.  I also >noticed that it makes me momentarily dizzy and I feel this slight >pounding in my head when this happens.  I’ve read in this newsgroup >that both withdrawing from Paxil and starting Lamictal can have >side-effects in line with these.  Is this more likely to be the >Lamictal or the Paxil?  Do these symptoms go away?  I have a call into >my pdoc, but haven’t heard anything back yet. >I’m a programmer and this is *really* distracting.  Every time I move >my eyes from one side of the screen to another I hear *whoosh*. >Any help would really be appreciated…

Response:

> Greetings all,

<snip> .  Is this more likely to be the > Lamictal or the Paxil?  Do these symptoms go away?

what you describe is very common and it will go away, hopefully within the month. i’m not a physician but  i’d hazard a guess that’s it’s the paxil, not the lamictal. do you get those "brain zaps" too? if you do it’s most likely the paxil, i’ve not heard of that side effect happening with lamictal.

Response:

Another loser for the killfile – Kirk

> Ok Shawnee, I know this is you.

>Path:

news.alt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.co m !not-for-mail – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Newsgroups: alt.support.depression.manic >Organization: http://groups.google.com/ >Lines: 19 >NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.69.193.30 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >X-Trace: posting.google.com 1029853889 12040 127.0.0.1 (20 Aug 2002 14:31:29 GMT) >Xref: news alt.support.depression.manic:266039 >Greetings all, >I’m a recently diagnosed bp II (finally, after years of taking >standard antidepressants and having them not work) and have been >taking Lamictal (75mg/2xday) for about six weeks.  Over the last three >weeks, my doctor has been tapering me off of Paxil.  I stopped the >Paxil on Wednesday of last week, and over the weekend started noticing >this "whooshing" noise whenever I move my eyes back and forth.  I also >noticed that it makes me momentarily dizzy and I feel this slight >pounding in my head when this happens.  I’ve read in this newsgroup >that both withdrawing from Paxil and starting Lamictal can have >side-effects in line with these.  Is this more likely to be the >Lamictal or the Paxil?  Do these symptoms go away?  I have a call into >my pdoc, but haven’t heard anything back yet. >I’m a programmer and this is *really* distracting.  Every time I move >my eyes from one side of the screen to another I hear *whoosh*. >Any help would really be appreciated…

Response:

Yes Kirk is a loser.. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Another loser for the killfile – Kirk > Ok Shawnee, I know this is you. > >Path: >news.alt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.c om >!not-for-mail > >Newsgroups: alt.support.depression.manic > >Organization: http://groups.google.com/ > >Lines: 19 > >NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.69.193.30 > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > >X-Trace: posting.google.com 1029853889 12040 127.0.0.1 (20 Aug 2002 >14:31:29 GMT) > >Xref: news alt.support.depression.manic:266039 > >Greetings all, > >I’m a recently diagnosed bp II (finally, after years of taking > >standard antidepressants and having them not work) and have been > >taking Lamictal (75mg/2xday) for about six weeks.  Over the last three > >weeks, my doctor has been tapering me off of Paxil.  I stopped the > >Paxil on Wednesday of last week, and over the weekend started noticing > >this "whooshing" noise whenever I move my eyes back and forth.  I also > >noticed that it makes me momentarily dizzy and I feel this slight > >pounding in my head when this happens.  I’ve read in this newsgroup > >that both withdrawing from Paxil and starting Lamictal can have > >side-effects in line with these.  Is this more likely to be the > >Lamictal or the Paxil?  Do these symptoms go away?  I have a call into > >my pdoc, but haven’t heard anything back yet. > >I’m a programmer and this is *really* distracting.  Every time I move > >my eyes from one side of the screen to another I hear *whoosh*. > >Any help would really be appreciated…

Response: