Question:

Today I saw my doctor who prescribes anti-depressants for me (psychiatrist). We were discussing my pain meds and he suggested I take something longer acting than hydrocodone (Norco) which I am now taking, since they tend to make me depressed, etc.  He said possibly the duragesic patch or MS Contin might be better, and to discuss this with my pain doc.  What do you folks think about it?  I’ve been seeing the psychiatrist for about 13 years (for anti-depressant medication only – no therapy, per se). I’d appreciate your input.  Thanks, Editor

Response:

Response:

<snippage> >We were discussing my pain meds and he suggested I take something longer >acting

You didn’t say what is causing your pain. Is it backpain, migraines or what? That would make a difference in the type of med a person would take. > He said possibly the duragesic patch or MS Contin >might be better, and to discuss this with my pain doc.  What do you folks >think about it?  

I have never used the MS Contin, but I do use the duragesic patches and for my type of nerve pain they work great.  They don’t take the pain completely away, nothing will, but it does bring the pain to a level I can tolerate it. Good luck and keep us posted. Sue We survive together or not at all.

Response:

Hi Richard, Interesting, it was the other way round for me. Oxycodone brightened me up, whereas Duragesic patch depressed me. Strange, as Fentanyl IV doesn’t have that effect at all. Morphine and Demerol in more than low dose makes it very hard for me to sleep, however. It just shows us how individual we all are, doesn’t it! Jay

Response:

Sue, it’s for lower back pain (spondylolisthesis).  Thanks for your reply…any more to offer? Editor

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – please? > <snippage> >We were discussing my pain meds and he suggested I take something longer >acting > You didn’t say what is causing your pain. Is it backpain, migraines or what? > That would make a difference in the type of med a person would take. > He said possibly the duragesic patch or MS Contin >might be better, and to discuss this with my pain doc.  What do you folks >think about it? > I have never used the MS Contin, but I do use the duragesic patches and for my > type of nerve pain they work great.  They don’t take the pain completely away, > nothing will, but it does bring the pain to a level I can tolerate it. > Good luck and keep us posted. > Sue > We survive together or not at all.

Response:

what does this mean ? http://opioids.com/fentanyl/fentket.html "CONCLUSIONS: Fentanyl activates NMDA pain facilitatory processes, which oppose analgesia and lead to long-lasting enhancement in pain sensitivity." Does this mean that pain sensitivity becomes greater over time by using this ? I wonder if anyone here has developed a pain syndrome from the stress of a bad withdrawal from prescription drugs ? I have it all…chest pains when breathing..soreness in the chest and stomach and 2 years of severe muscle stiffness and tightness and loss of equilibrium. I am trying Elavil now becuase Ocycodone makes me feel ill.  I am new to this and the pain is wearing me down and in Bristish Columbia one cannot just walk into a rheumatologists office..6 months wait..like everything here.  Anyone envious of Canada’s health care system should dosome investigating. R

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Today I saw my doctor who prescribes anti-depressants for me > (psychiatrist). > We were discussing my pain meds and he suggested I take something longer > acting than hydrocodone (Norco) which I am now taking, since they tend to > make me depressed, etc.  He said possibly the duragesic patch or MS Contin > might be better, and to discuss this with my pain doc.  What do you folks > think about it?  I’ve been seeing the psychiatrist for about 13 years (for > anti-depressant medication only – no therapy, per se). > I’d appreciate your input.  Thanks, > Editor > Editor , >    Individual reactions are so hard to predict . > I have been treated for Major Depression for years > and I have an opposite effect , in that hydrocodone > does not depress me like oxycodone . I only use the > Norco rarely , so I don’t worry about the acet . > The Oxycodone may give you significantly greater > pain relief , which in itself may help your depression . > On another note , fentanyl ( Duragesic ) actually > perks me up a little . If I had to start with Duragesic > or MScontin , I would go for the Duragesic . This > is based only on my own experience and YMMV . > Getting the correct dose of either is as important as > which is best for you , and that may take a little time . > Good Luck ! > Peace , > Richard

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >please? >what does this mean ? >http://opioids.com/fentanyl/fentket.html >"CONCLUSIONS: Fentanyl activates NMDA pain facilitatory processes, which >oppose analgesia and lead to long-lasting enhancement in pain sensitivity." >Does this mean that pain sensitivity becomes greater over time by using this >? >I wonder if anyone here has developed a pain syndrome from the stress of a >bad withdrawal from prescription drugs ? >I have it all…chest pains when breathing..soreness in the chest and >stomach and 2 years of severe muscle stiffness and tightness and loss of >equilibrium. I am trying Elavil now becuase Ocycodone makes me feel ill.  I >am new to this and the pain is wearing me down and in Bristish Columbia one >cannot just walk into a rheumatologists office..6 months wait..like >everything here.  Anyone envious of Canada’s health care system should >dosome investigating. >R

That site was quite interesting.  Not sure what to make of it.  I have been using the Duragesic patch for 2 years now and the benefit I find is they give me a constant level of pain relief.  In the beginning, my pain specialist started me on the 50mcg patches and that was not sufficient.  He raised it to the 100 mcg and the relief I received was very sufficient.  During this period of time, I was taking oxycodone for break through pain.  Started in March  of this year, we started changing the patch every 48 hours rather than the 72 hours the packaging recomends.  That again made a sufficient difference in the relief I received.  I now use very few oxycodone for break through pain.  In fact I had my doctor reduce my prescription to half of what it was before. Everyone is different in how medication works for them.  This works great for me.  I still do not have the life I had before all of this happened.  But I can now take care of my basic needs, which was nearly impossible before proper control of the pain. I have not had to have my meds increased since changing the patch ever 2 days and from what my pain doctor tells me, a person actually reaches a place where they kind of plateau and seem to stay there.  Perhaps I have reached that place.  He has let me know I will be on these meds the rest of my life which seems rather daunting.  I cannot say enough good about the patches.  They are an extremely strong medication, about 100 times stronger that morphine.  So a patient must be opiate tolerant for their use. The one thing in that site you sent was they were using the patches for post operative pain.  It is my understanding that is not a proper use for the patches. Sue We survive together or not at all.

Response:

Lamotrigine is a medication used to treat Bipolar & Epilepsy. Buy lamotrigine drug and feel better today!

Question:

SqUiGgLeS wrote – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I’m going to have to look lamotrigine; i’m glad you found >something good. >I am convinced that people drink because they are suffering >from some kind of emotional illness.  Nobody wants to >enter oblivion if they are not feeling some kind of pain. >I think it is waaaayy underrated and underdiagnosed by >doctors as a sign (ding ding ding ding) that there is >something wrong in the person’s inner life.  It’s just such >a bummer when the whole life is taken up by it, and no >intervention has taken place to correct it. >But you know, better late than never.   >Squiggles >p.s. why on earth would you take an SSRI for your case, sheesh. >btw lithium does have its problems, but after 20+ yrs of taking >it with a very good mental state, i can’t complain;

hi, well the reason for the SSRI was that nobody including me had even thought about the possibility of BP, i presented with standard depression / anxiety symptoms, i hadnt noticed the cycles between anxiety and depressed phases, and hadnt really thought about my temperament in the past as i wasnt an expert, at that stage i thought manic depression was only the very graphic BP I and it didnt cross my mind.. nor my pdocs… i guess i was one of those people who wasnt screened properly, its only since i was diagnosed cyclothymic (my first DX, i now say i’m BP II) that i was able to look back and think, ah, this is what i was like all along.. by then i’d been taking an SSRI for two years…. ! i definately was drinking because of the depression…. and when i wasnt drinking i was hiding away into my work.. working long hours in the studio and coming home and drinking… but i wonder if its a coincidence that the BP became stronger once i’d given up the drink? i think getting through anxiety was a factor too, i think the anxiety was covering a lot of the BP symtoms… lamotrigine is interesting, i’ve heard from a few here that its very effective…. im yet to find out as its too early to say, but im feeling some benefit at a low dose… bw m~ — dogs believe they are human ~ cats believe they are God

Response:

>SqUiGgLeS wrote >I am convinced that people drink because they are suffering >from some kind of emotional illness.  Nobody wants to >enter oblivion if they are not feeling some kind of pain.

i don’t know why other people drink, you are probably correct, but i was an exception to SqUiGgLeS Syndrome, i would get hypomanic and want to take or drink something to make the joy go up and up and HOWL AT THE MOON!!!!! feels pretty good…to bad i got in so much trouble… i hope you study this further and share your findings with the world…

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((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((m)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) ) ))))))) no sorry, you descibe perfectly what I feel about my anorexia.. yes, trying to prove ‘was worth something. i triendwith schoolwork etc. etc, i did whatever i couldto be perfect (to hide the fear of being nothing), but anorexia was somehow the only thing giving somehow satisfaction, like i was really achieving something (although I always saw fat everywhere, no matter howskinny i was) I think that the same feeling-worthless-stuff is also behind my depressions. And behind my ups, because I’m always unde pressure tobe "prefect", and this pressure brings me "up" m, i hope you’ll ecoversoon from your therapy-session, when it’sabout this kind of stuff, it can bring back lots of heavy emotions, is my experience.. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > yes, it has many complicated reasons behind it > for me it was also one of the many things i do to eradicate the crapness > that i believe is at the centre of my being, it was like all the > workworkwork i do to try and prove myself worthwhile, i was always > pointed out by my mother and by school peers as a fat little kid (and > actually i wasnt even chubby if i look at my pictures, i just had a > critical mother!.. who is *still* critical of my appearance and > everything i do)… so i thought i could make myself better and more > likeable by being skinny… and the more i did it, the better i > became… only i felt worse and worse because i could see more fat on my > body that needed getting rid of…. and eventually im trying to get rid > of everything that is me because i hate me…. > err whoops sorry, stream of consciousness there, im feeling a bit low > cos this is partly what i was talking to therapist about this afternoon…. > hugz > m~ >yes, anorexia is about control for me to >but also about doing at least 1 thing (loosing weight) i was sure i did >well..somehow it made me proud to loose weight, more then everyone else. >all the other things i did, i was never sure off, i was never proud off. >This wassomething i completely did myself, and no-one, no-one could control >me in this area, whatever everyone tried, i went on.. >>"ME" wrote >>>the way I see it myself is a bit different: >>>anorexia kills emotions i.m.o., so when this period was over, I"started >>>dealing with these emotions in another way: getting up and down with my >>>moods.. >>Hey I was anorectic too… hmm… seems many of us have had that kind of >>dissorder… >>And yeah, to me the anorexia was all focused on CONTROL. In a world thta >>completely lacked predictability I could atleast take control of my body. >>And disappear. >>Sorta. >>Warm hugs, >>TK > — > dogs believe they are human ~ cats believe they are God

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yes, it has many complicated reasons behind it for me it was also one of the many things i do to eradicate the crapness that i believe is at the centre of my being, it was like all the workworkwork i do to try and prove myself worthwhile, i was always pointed out by my mother and by school peers as a fat little kid (and actually i wasnt even chubby if i look at my pictures, i just had a critical mother!.. who is *still* critical of my appearance and everything i do)… so i thought i could make myself better and more likeable by being skinny… and the more i did it, the better i became… only i felt worse and worse because i could see more fat on my body that needed getting rid of…. and eventually im trying to get rid of everything that is me because i hate me…. err whoops sorry, stream of consciousness there, im feeling a bit low cos this is partly what i was talking to therapist about this afternoon…. hugz m~ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >yes, anorexia is about control for me to >but also about doing at least 1 thing (loosing weight) i was sure i did >well..somehow it made me proud to loose weight, more then everyone else. >all the other things i did, i was never sure off, i was never proud off. >This wassomething i completely did myself, and no-one, no-one could control >me in this area, whatever everyone tried, i went on.. >"ME" wrote >>the way I see it myself is a bit different: >>anorexia kills emotions i.m.o., so when this period was over, I"started >>dealing with these emotions in another way: getting up and down with my >>moods.. >Hey I was anorectic too… hmm… seems many of us have had that kind of >dissorder… >And yeah, to me the anorexia was all focused on CONTROL. In a world thta >completely lacked predictability I could atleast take control of my body. >And disappear. >Sorta. >Warm hugs, >TK

– dogs believe they are human ~ cats believe they are God

Response:

((((((((((Crap Ness)))))))))))

yes, it has many complicated reasons behind it for me it was also one of the many things i do to eradicate the crapness that i believe is at the centre of my being, it was like all the workworkwork i do to try and prove myself worthwhile, i was always pointed out by my mother and by school peers as a fat little kid (and actually i wasnt even chubby if i look at my pictures, i just had a critical mother!.. who is *still* critical of my appearance and everything i do)… so i thought i could make myself better and more likeable by being skinny… and the more i did it, the better i became… only i felt worse and worse because i could see more fat on my body that needed getting rid of…. and eventually im trying to get rid of everything that is me because i hate me…. err whoops sorry, stream of consciousness there, im feeling a bit low cos this is partly what i was talking to therapist about this afternoon…. hugz m~ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >yes, anorexia is about control for me to >but also about doing at least 1 thing (loosing weight) i was sure i did >well..somehow it made me proud to loose weight, more then everyone else. >all the other things i did, i was never sure off, i was never proud off. >This wassomething i completely did myself, and no-one, no-one could control >me in this area, whatever everyone tried, i went on.. >"ME" wrote >>the way I see it myself is a bit different: >>anorexia kills emotions i.m.o., so when this period was over, I"started >>dealing with these emotions in another way: getting up and down with my >>moods.. >Hey I was anorectic too… hmm… seems many of us have had that kind of >dissorder… >And yeah, to me the anorexia was all focused on CONTROL. In a world thta >completely lacked predictability I could atleast take control of my body. >And disappear. >Sorta. >Warm hugs, >TK

– dogs believe they are human ~ cats believe they are God

Response:

hi squiggles thats really interesting that we have such common experiences… yes i think certain circumstances of my life definately lead to depression… but there has got to be something in my family background i guess… i know i had cyclothymia all my life… and nobody in my family admits to BP but on my fathers side there were a lot of violent alcoholic men who might be hiding their BP under the alcohol… i was reminded in discussion last night that i also had an addiction i came out of just before i was diagnosed as BP…. i was drinking constantly – not heavily, but enough to numb myself out – for a whole year, and it took me several tries to come off the drink…. that was the year before i was diagnosed…. it might well have been a factor…. coming back into the ‘real world’ was quite strange…. yes, i have decided to use a mood stabiliser now, in the end i decided to because i need it to be stable enough to work…. things are so inconsistent for me that i lose energy with all these mood swings and can’t manage a job at the moment… im taking lamotrigine, it has the least side effects of anything i’ve tried… and i’ve reduced the SSRI which i think was another big factor in my BP… hopefully it will work well but its early days yet… it seems to have some effect anyway …  its good to know the lithium works well for you, i’ve heard its a wonder drug… im just a bit nervous of it because of the side effects…. take care hon m~ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >hi m~, >there are many common aspects between your experiences >and mine; maybe the circumstances of your life put you >in emotional states that lead to depression or manic-depression, >assuming that you have a propensity for that; sort of >like, if your genetic code says you are likely to get >gall bladder trouble, and you eat a lot of fatty foods, >you get it rather than not.  Who knows? there are no >blood tests. >But when it is severe as you describe, i would recommend >a drug, because it won’t go away with psychotherapy once >it has propelled itself into a change in the brain. >I take lithium; i hope what you take will work out; >cheers, >Squiggles

– dogs believe they are human ~ cats believe they are God

Response:

yes, anorexia is about control for me to but also about doing at least 1 thing (loosing weight) i was sure i did well..somehow it made me proud to loose weight, more then everyone else. all the other things i did, i was never sure off, i was never proud off. This wassomething i completely did myself, and no-one, no-one could control me in this area, whatever everyone tried, i went on.. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "ME" wrote > the way I see it myself is a bit different: > anorexia kills emotions i.m.o., so when this period was over, I"started > dealing with these emotions in another way: getting up and down with my > moods.. > Hey I was anorectic too… hmm… seems many of us have had that kind of > dissorder… > And yeah, to me the anorexia was all focused on CONTROL. In a world thta > completely lacked predictability I could atleast take control of my body. > And disappear. > Sorta. > Warm hugs, > TK

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >"ME" wrote >the way I see it myself is a bit different: >anorexia kills emotions i.m.o., so when this period was over, I"started >dealing with these emotions in another way: getting up and down with my >moods.. >Hey I was anorectic too… hmm… seems many of us have had that kind of >dissorder… >And yeah, to me the anorexia was all focused on CONTROL. In a world thta >completely lacked predictability I could atleast take control of my body. >And disappear. >Sorta. >Warm hugs, >TK

my experience is somewhat similiar too… except that i felt i was a failure, and i tried so hard to do everything perfect to make up for that… thats what the anorexia was for me too…. i talk so much about control with my therapist…. yes, disappearing… heh, thats a big factor in my depression, not so much in anorexia, but when im depressed i want to disappear completely… thats why i like that radiohead song so much… must send you a copy, its a beautiful album.. and the unpredictability… the world outside has always scared me…. {{{{{{gentle huggles}}}}}} m~ — dogs believe they are human ~ cats believe they are God

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> i know what >you mean about impulsiveness; my husband has often chastised me >about it; it may be a part of being bipolar but it’s also my >character; as i do not hurt anyone by it, i don’t consider it >a disease.

sorry to butt in here…. just the mention of impulsiveness… it used to drive my mother crazy… ‘why are you laughing so loud.. hey dont lose control, dont do things without thinking’… but impusiveness is part of me, part of what makes me the fun-loving person i am… what makes me go and create art and music…. learn new things out of crazy inspiration… yes, it can get too much, but a certain part of this BP is who i am, its my personality… and i dont want to ever lose that…. i only want enough medication that i can keep things in control, so i can keep a job… but im only just starting to learn that being BP isnt something that makes me ‘bad’…. quite often its something that people enjoy, this inspired, spontaneous, impulsive, fun loving person….. hugz m~ — dogs believe they are human ~ cats believe they are God

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> medication that i can keep things in control, so i can keep a job… but > im only just starting to learn that being BP isnt something that makes > me ‘bad’…. quite often its something that people enjoy, this inspired, > spontaneous, impulsive, fun loving person….. > hugz > m~ > — > dogs believe they are human ~ cats believe they are God

Appreciate the vote of confidence m~; maybe we should start the Undead Poets’ Society; seriously, though… *enough* medication is absolutely right on–just wish doctors would tinker with that and there would be less side effects. cheers, Squiggles

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > hi squiggles > thats really interesting that we have such common experiences… > yes i think certain circumstances of my life definately lead to > depression… but there has got to be something in my family background > i guess… i know i had cyclothymia all my life… and nobody in my > family admits to BP but on my fathers side there were a lot of violent > alcoholic men who might be hiding their BP under the alcohol… > i was reminded in discussion last night that i also had an addiction i > came out of just before i was diagnosed as BP…. i was drinking > constantly – not heavily, but enough to numb myself out – for a whole > year, and it took me several tries to come off the drink…. that was > the year before i was diagnosed…. it might well have been a factor…. > coming back into the ‘real world’ was quite strange…. > yes, i have decided to use a mood stabiliser now, in the end i decided > to because i need it to be stable enough to work…. things are so > inconsistent for me that i lose energy with all these mood swings and > can’t manage a job at the moment… im taking lamotrigine, it has the > least side effects of anything i’ve tried… and i’ve reduced the SSRI > which i think was another big factor in my BP… hopefully it will work > well but its early days yet… it seems to have some effect anyway … >  its good to know the lithium works well for you, i’ve heard its a > wonder drug… im just a bit nervous of it because of the side effects…. > take care hon > m~

I’m going to have to look lamotrigine; i’m glad you found something good. I am convinced that people drink because they are suffering from some kind of emotional illness.  Nobody wants to enter oblivion if they are not feeling some kind of pain. I think it is waaaayy underrated and underdiagnosed by doctors as a sign (ding ding ding ding) that there is something wrong in the person’s inner life.  It’s just such a bummer when the whole life is taken up by it, and no intervention has taken place to correct it. But you know, better late than never.   Squiggles p.s. why on earth would you take an SSRI for your case, sheesh. btw lithium does have its problems, but after 20+ yrs of taking it with a very good mental state, i can’t complain;

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hey princess ME i didnt know you had anorexia too, i had that when i was 20 still gives me problems with body image yeah there might be someting in the hypoglycaemia, it makes me high i dont eat lunch now if im working cos hypoglycaemia makes me buzzzzzzz i agree that anorexia blocks emotions too, you put all your focus into external stuff when that was over i had a manic high and then a breakdown..anxiety and OCD…. never knew what all that stuff was back then cos i wouldnt tak to anyone…. mega hugglez princess m~ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>Hi Squiggles, >>Hard to say..I’ll just tell my story. >>At age 20 I went to live in a studentshouse, being anorectic at that >time. >>Anorexia quit soon dissappeard, and the moodswings begun (i do belive >that >>there isa connecting between those two for me). >>As far as I can remember it started with mild, fast moodswing, from >being >>donw for at most a few weeks, and being very energetic. >>I really don’t know for sure if this was BP-stuff, but I think so. >>It felt like being an emotionally very unstable person. >>Later on the depressions became deeper and a lot longer. I never felt >the >>mania until I was hospitalized once. Looking back, I can see I’ve had >>hypomanic episodes a lot more often. >>No anxiety attacks >>I often got depressions after having troubles, and I got hypomanic from >>working a lot, or being to busy. >Hi ME, >Again, here is an example of a dietary connection, i.e. >anorexia– that might make you hypoglycemic for sure.  Of >course, it could be the other way around.  I recall that in >my teens i would go from gaining a lot of weight to being >stick skinny in phases. >the way I see it myself is a bit different: >anorexia kills emotions i.m.o., so when this period was over, I"started >dealing with these emotions in another way: getting up and down with my >moods.. >Interesting- it seems that if you have a dip, then you necessarily >have an upswing – that is why they call it bipolar.  But, it >may be related to depression period and the depressed people >just never get to swing back up– very much like a pendulum >trying to get an equilibrium back. >Squiggles >- Sir Winston Churchill

– "While UNIX says “I’m sorry you can’t do that”, MacOS has exactly two error messages. It either goes “eep?” or the setup box is simply not there until 12 other unidentified items have been installed and three apparently unrelated dialog boxes have been completed. " – Alan Cox, on porting GNU/Linux to 68k macs

Response:

hi m~, there are many common aspects between your experiences and mine; maybe the circumstances of your life put you in emotional states that lead to depression or manic-depression, assuming that you have a propensity for that; sort of like, if your genetic code says you are likely to get gall bladder trouble, and you eat a lot of fatty foods, you get it rather than not.  Who knows? there are no blood tests. But when it is severe as you describe, i would recommend a drug, because it won’t go away with psychotherapy once it has propelled itself into a change in the brain. I take lithium; i hope what you take will work out; cheers, Squiggles

Response:

"ME" wrote > the way I see it myself is a bit different: > anorexia kills emotions i.m.o., so when this period was over, I"started > dealing with these emotions in another way: getting up and down with my > moods..

Hey I was anorectic too… hmm… seems many of us have had that kind of dissorder… And yeah, to me the anorexia was all focused on CONTROL. In a world thta completely lacked predictability I could atleast take control of my body. And disappear. Sorta. Warm hugs, TK

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Hi ME, >Again, here is an example of a dietary connection, i.e. >anorexia– that might make you hypoglycemic for sure.  Of >course, it could be the other way around.  I recall that in >my teens i would go from gaining a lot of weight to being >stick skinny in phases. >Interesting- it seems that if you have a dip, then you necessarily >have an upswing – that is why they call it bipolar.  But, it >may be related to depression period and the depressed people >just never get to swing back up– very much like a pendulum >trying to get an equilibrium back.

hi squiggles yeah i’ve read a bit about that lately, some theories that bp and unipolar are all part of the same spectrum… for me the depression probably started way back from day 1 of being a kid and being alienated but i remember one day in particular when my parents had split up and we went back to australia (had been living in switzerland) and all my friends didnt want to know me any more and i was so alone i became really angry and violent at home becaue there was nowhere else to take it but that scared me that i could be so horrible so at 10 years old i shut down everything that feels and i can date that as the day when i started having depressions i know my moods swung back and forth and attributed that to being a creative type then when i was 12 i got ocd had that for nearly 10 years and told nobody then i was anorexic at 20… and stopped when i could see every bit of fat on my body and i was 8 1/2 stone which is pretty skinny on me and it scared me but i went to canada and didnt eat much there eihter and used to spend a lot of time alone i got on this religious high which i think now was a manic high came back home and got really low and crashed into a breakdown thats when i had to tell my mum i had ocd suffered with that still mostly alone for a coupla years then it kinda cleared when i moved to the UK it was something to do with getting an understanding and taking control of my own life, feeling independent i started studying and used to get in these panicked rushes where i’d work too fast a lot like my dysphoric manias but they didnt go that far i had another breakdown at 26, that was anxiety and panic attacks, had been working in a school and got really depressed, i had these weird attacks where i felt like i was being sealed off from the rest of the world funny thing is once i learnt to control the anxiety and deal with it the panics stopped a few years later i was taking SSRI meds then too and im sure that the buzz that turned into BP came partly from taking zoloft cos i only noticed it being really buzzy since then but before i had mania, i used to have cycles between anxiety – which felt kinda high – and then a depression after…. thesedays i get mania if im rushing about trying to do too much or if i am among a group of people and i feel pressure to talk and talk… and sometimes i just get inspired and then it happens…. i get about a 1-2 week up and then a coupla weeks down…. sometimes longer downs… sometimes very long depressions… i get a lot of dysphoric mania, just occasionally i get euphoric, racing thoughts, pressured speech, loss of ability to concentrate… i verge on psychosis but have never been there…. the meds (lamictal and zoloft) help somewhat but sometimes i feel like im being numbed and that makes me feel down… i dont think it was sudden…. more gradual… like the stressouts turned into manias… and one day i noticed this was happening too much…. the depressions were more sudden…. but i’ve always had this thing that when i’ve been sad or crying and i feel better i swing up and overshoot the mark thats what its like when i recover from depression too…. yeah the going up the elevator fast is something i recognise… thats what that swing upwards feels like…. like i get inspired and then its outta control….. hope you can find some answers hon hugz m~ — "While UNIX says “I’m sorry you can’t do that”, MacOS has exactly two error messages. It either goes “eep?” or the setup box is simply not there until 12 other unidentified items have been installed and three apparently unrelated dialog boxes have been completed. " – Alan Cox, on porting GNU/Linux to 68k macs

Response:

I’d be greatful to you all, if you could recount from memory how your manic depression started – – was it sudden, – did it start with mania (speediness), or with depression, – did you feel out of balance like going up the elevator fast, – did you sink into unimagineable depression, – was it all preceded by sudden anxiety attacks? I’m trying to find common ground, because I think i will never know if i am truly bp or if it was unregcognized and undiagnosed Valium withdrawal. Thanks (as many details as possible about how it FELT would be appreciated) Squiggles

Response:

I WAS SEVEN YEARS OLD. MY MOTHER WAS GOING THROUGH SOME WEIRD SHIT1 and sew did eye! r . : r : . w | w | e . . . . . . . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . h : o : : e , . s 11D

I’d be greatful to you all, if you could recount from memory how your manic depression started – – was it sudden, – did it start with mania (speediness), or with depression, – did you feel out of balance like going up the elevator fast, – did you sink into unimagineable depression, – was it all preceded by sudden anxiety attacks? I’m trying to find common ground, because I think i will never know if i am truly bp or if it was unregcognized and undiagnosed Valium withdrawal. Thanks (as many details as possible about how it FELT would be appreciated) Squiggles

Response:

LINDA? rr

I WAS SEVEN YEARS OLD. MY MOTHER WAS GOING THROUGH SOME WEIRD SHIT1 and sew did eye! r . : r : . w | w | e . . . . . . . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . h : o : : e , . s 11D

I’d be greatful to you all, if you could recount from memory how your manic depression started – – was it sudden, – did it start with mania (speediness), or with depression, – did you feel out of balance like going up the elevator fast, – did you sink into unimagineable depression, – was it all preceded by sudden anxiety attacks? I’m trying to find common ground, because I think i will never know if i am truly bp or if it was unregcognized and undiagnosed Valium withdrawal. Thanks (as many details as possible about how it FELT would be appreciated) Squiggles

Response:

I had a can’t-stand-still manic episode after I had lost 35 pounds on Atkins’ Diet and then ate birthday cake.  Say what you will about just an anxiety attack, but  going back on both sides of the family, it was there. Two aunts were hospitalized and given shock therapy; my grandmother drove everyone in her family ‘to the edge.’  They thought she was mean when all she was was sick.  I gave my mother Patty Duke’s books and she literally cried to find out that grandma was sick and not just mean. My main manic symptom that leads me to medication is racing thoughts.  I have been tried on many meds and have finally found the right ‘cocktail’ for me.  BTW:  I am 56 years old and as I look back, I have had it all my life. — Val in Boise

I’d be greatful to you all, if you could recount from memory how your manic depression started – – was it sudden, – did it start with mania (speediness), or with depression, – did you feel out of balance like going up the elevator fast, – did you sink into unimagineable depression, – was it all preceded by sudden anxiety attacks? I’m trying to find common ground, because I think i will never know if i am truly bp or if it was unregcognized and undiagnosed Valium withdrawal. Thanks (as many details as possible about how it FELT would be appreciated) Squiggles

Response:

Hi Squiggles, Hard to say..I’ll just tell my story. At age 20 I went to live in a studentshouse, being anorectic at that time. Anorexia quit soon dissappeard, and the moodswings begun (i do belive that there isa connecting between those two for me). As far as I can remember it started with mild, fast moodswing, from being donw for at most a few weeks, and being very energetic. I really don’t know for sure if this was BP-stuff, but I think so. It felt like being an emotionally very unstable person. Later on the depressions became deeper and a lot longer. I never felt the mania until I was hospitalized once. Looking back, I can see I’ve had hypomanic episodes a lot more often. No anxiety attacks I often got depressions after having troubles, and I got hypomanic from working a lot, or being to busy. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’d be greatful to you all, if you could recount from > memory how your manic depression started – > – was it sudden, > – did it start with mania (speediness), or with depression, > – did you feel out of balance like going up the elevator fast, > – did you sink into unimagineable depression, > – was it all preceded by sudden anxiety attacks? > I’m trying to find common ground, because I think i will > never know if i am truly bp or if it was unregcognized and > undiagnosed Valium withdrawal. > Thanks > (as many details as possible about how it FELT would be appreciated) > Squiggles

Response:

> I had a can’t-stand-still manic episode after I had lost 35 pounds on > Atkins’ Diet and then ate birthday cake.  Say what you will about just an > anxiety attack, but  going back on both sides of the family, it was there. > Two aunts were hospitalized and given shock therapy; my grandmother drove > everyone in her family ‘to the edge.’  They thought she was mean when all > she was was sick.  I gave my mother Patty Duke’s books and she literally > cried to find out that grandma was sick and not just mean. > My main manic symptom that leads me to medication is racing thoughts.  I > have been tried on many meds and have finally found the right ‘cocktail’ for > me.  BTW:  I am 56 years old and as I look back, I have had it all my life. > —

Hi Val, Thanks for the reply… i keep asking the same questions — that’s because i keep getting the same answers – none; well, in your case it does sound like hypoglycemia may have played a part there, but it could be concurrent. The hereditary aspect though, puts a real stamp on it. Thanks Squiggles

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Hi Squiggles, > Hard to say..I’ll just tell my story. > At age 20 I went to live in a studentshouse, being anorectic at that time. > Anorexia quit soon dissappeard, and the moodswings begun (i do belive that > there isa connecting between those two for me). > As far as I can remember it started with mild, fast moodswing, from being > donw for at most a few weeks, and being very energetic. > I really don’t know for sure if this was BP-stuff, but I think so. > It felt like being an emotionally very unstable person. > Later on the depressions became deeper and a lot longer. I never felt the > mania until I was hospitalized once. Looking back, I can see I’ve had > hypomanic episodes a lot more often. > No anxiety attacks > I often got depressions after having troubles, and I got hypomanic from > working a lot, or being to busy.

Hi ME, Again, here is an example of a dietary connection, i.e. anorexia– that might make you hypoglycemic for sure.  Of course, it could be the other way around.  I recall that in my teens i would go from gaining a lot of weight to being stick skinny in phases. Interesting- it seems that if you have a dip, then you necessarily have an upswing – that is why they call it bipolar.  But, it may be related to depression period and the depressed people just never get to swing back up– very much like a pendulum trying to get an equilibrium back. Squiggles                         – Sir Winston Churchill

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi Squiggles, > Hard to say..I’ll just tell my story. > At age 20 I went to live in a studentshouse, being anorectic at that time. > Anorexia quit soon dissappeard, and the moodswings begun (i do belive that > there isa connecting between those two for me). > As far as I can remember it started with mild, fast moodswing, from being > donw for at most a few weeks, and being very energetic. > I really don’t know for sure if this was BP-stuff, but I think so. > It felt like being an emotionally very unstable person. > Later on the depressions became deeper and a lot longer. I never felt the > mania until I was hospitalized once. Looking back, I can see I’ve had > hypomanic episodes a lot more often. > No anxiety attacks > I often got depressions after having troubles, and I got hypomanic from > working a lot, or being to busy. > Hi ME, > Again, here is an example of a dietary connection, i.e. > anorexia– that might make you hypoglycemic for sure.  Of > course, it could be the other way around.  I recall that in > my teens i would go from gaining a lot of weight to being > stick skinny in phases.

the way I see it myself is a bit different: anorexia kills emotions i.m.o., so when this period was over, I"started dealing with these emotions in another way: getting up and down with my moods.. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Interesting- it seems that if you have a dip, then you necessarily > have an upswing – that is why they call it bipolar.  But, it > may be related to depression period and the depressed people > just never get to swing back up– very much like a pendulum > trying to get an equilibrium back. > Squiggles > – Sir Winston Churchill

Response:

SqU.  It is in my genes.  When I was in high school, I could never stay interested in a specific boy for longer than a month or so.  I finally met Pharis and he changes so much that he has hung around 29 years. I have a lot of skill as a typist and receptionist.  I never applied for a job I wanted that I didn’t get.  The problem is this.  When I am manic, the jobs look so wonderful and I really want to do that.  So I get the job and after awhile, I think ‘what was I thinking.’  But I am stuck.  I hang in, hating it, until I get a real low and I will quit over the smallest intrusion. I never stayed at a job longer than three years (I hated them after 18 months). So what I am saying is that something like my birthday cake thing will trigger enough to look back and tell the doctor so he makes the diagnosis. No sweat. — Val in Boise

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > SqU.  It is in my genes.  When I was in high school, I could never stay > interested in a specific boy for longer than a month or so.  I finally met > Pharis and he changes so much that he has hung around 29 years. > I have a lot of skill as a typist and receptionist.  I never applied for a > job I wanted that I didn’t get.  The problem is this.  When I am manic, the > jobs look so wonderful and I really want to do that.  So I get the job and > after awhile, I think ‘what was I thinking.’  But I am stuck.  I hang in, > hating it, until I get a real low and I will quit over the smallest > intrusion. > I never stayed at a job longer than three years (I hated them after 18 > months). > So what I am saying is that something like my birthday cake thing will > trigger enough to look back and tell the doctor so he makes the diagnosis. > No sweat. > — > Val in Boise

Val, the way you describe your present reactions to situations sounds like you are NOT taking drugs – is that so?  Or have you reduced the dosage? "Pharis" hmmm…. sounds like a Greek name maybe; i know what you mean about impulsiveness; my husband has often chastised me about it; it may be a part of being bipolar but it’s also my character; as i do not hurt anyone by it, i don’t consider it a disease. Squiggles — "Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most times he will pick himself up and carry on."                         – Sir Winston Churchill

Response:

Question:

2:43 am   I think I a m doomed to use my intelligence to keep myself in turmoil because I am plagued by a pervasive feeling of emptiness and always have been. The best I can do is to produce music and art as a constructive way to use this impulse. Art is very therapeutic.   (care to comment?) Saturday, November 16th, 2002 6:32 pm Chimichanga and a panic attack to go   I’m frightened of fat Mexican women in Taquerias The kind with little shrines to Our Lady of Guadalupe On the Wall Because I figure they can see the demons inside me The demons my mother says are there Making me frightened Frightened of fat Mexican women in Taquerias   (care to comment?) Friday, November 15th, 2002 10:54 pm   At night I can still feel the dysphoria but it is distant, like in another room. So much so that I can work. I bet it has something to do with the buuildup of dopamine in my brain.   (3 thoughts | care to comment?) 5:47 pm   Alright, got the videos returned and got something to eat. Now back here. Got a salad for later. Feel bad for mom. current music: Melting Euphoria – Point Me at the Sky   (3 thoughts | care to comment?) 4:42 pm Recent developments   So depressed feel like in a full-body physical pain mood is about -2/-3. Find I can’t really do much of anything except lie here and wait for the pain to go away. Often feel on the verge of death, generally speaking. Major goal left for today is to go downstairs and return these two video tapes. Major accomplishment for the day was getting dressed and buying a couple of breakfast burritos across the street then sitting out in the sun in the courtyard for around 10 minutes. Felt self-conscious being looked at by the guy coiling hose by the pool, like I was drunk, still with a clear glass of water in my hand (booze?) looking like maybe I didn’t belong there. Slunk back to my room. Dr. Khoury called. They FINALLY noticed their horrible computer typo in my prescription. He asked me to accepted his apology and I accepted it. Said Kaiser should have caught the fact that 600mg a day of Topamax was way above the prescribed level and recognized it as a typo. Personally I’ve got my money on RU-486 to pull me out of the psychotic depression. Maybe the next Dr., Dr. Lee will go for it. Called Dr. Creiger at Kaiser to see about getting my mask refitted

Question:

Great job Charles! Warren

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Seems like the Drop-Shot is still going on up here. I had one bass in the > boat, and another one "quick-released", LedBelly had three total. Winds were > 20-31MPH so doing much of anything was tough work. We were both pleased to > do what we did. > — > Visit Charles at: www.thebasspro.net > My new Motto: "Too invested to quit" > www.outdoorfrontiers.com > www.midtennclassic.org > Sorry you didn’t get to visit with Bob.  I hope you & Ledbelly do great. > The Trap strategy is a winner up here when the temps are 48-60 degrees, I > can tell you that pal. > Full report expected! > Warren > > Unfortunately, I was unable to visit. Had alot of bass to discuss with > him > > too. > > Ledbelly and I will have to hit the Priest in the morning to make up for > it > > though. Water level and temps are dropping, and the winds are up. Should > be > > an interesting morning. I’m thinking Chrome/Blue Rattletraps myself! > What’s > > your opinion? > > — > > Visit Charles at: www.thebasspro.net > > My new Motto: "Too invested to quit" > > www.outdoorfrontiers.com > > www.midtennclassic.org > > > Welcome back Charles.  How was your visit with Bob?  You didn’t talk > about > > > bass fishing by any chance, did ya? > > > Warren > > > — > > > http://www.fishingworld.com/MesaTackleSupply/ > > > http://www.millenniumcustomrods.com/ > > > http://warrenwolk.com/ > > > http://tri-statebassmasters.com/ > > > > Leave for 3 days… and only 10 new threads??? Heck… I thought I > was > > > > missing out on something. > > > > — > > > > Visit Charles at: www.thebasspro.net > > > > My new Motto: "Too invested to quit" > > > > www.outdoorfrontiers.com > > > > www.midtennclassic.org

Response:

Seems like the Drop-Shot is still going on up here. I had one bass in the boat, and another one "quick-released", LedBelly had three total. Winds were 20-31MPH so doing much of anything was tough work. We were both pleased to do what we did. — Visit Charles at: www.thebasspro.net My new Motto: "Too invested to quit" www.outdoorfrontiers.com www.midtennclassic.org

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Sorry you didn’t get to visit with Bob.  I hope you & Ledbelly do great. > The Trap strategy is a winner up here when the temps are 48-60 degrees, I > can tell you that pal. > Full report expected! > Warren > Unfortunately, I was unable to visit. Had alot of bass to discuss with him > too. > Ledbelly and I will have to hit the Priest in the morning to make up for > it > though. Water level and temps are dropping, and the winds are up. Should > be > an interesting morning. I’m thinking Chrome/Blue Rattletraps myself! > What’s > your opinion? > — > Visit Charles at: www.thebasspro.net > My new Motto: "Too invested to quit" > www.outdoorfrontiers.com > www.midtennclassic.org > > Welcome back Charles.  How was your visit with Bob?  You didn’t talk > about > > bass fishing by any chance, did ya? > > Warren > > — > > http://www.fishingworld.com/MesaTackleSupply/ > > http://www.millenniumcustomrods.com/ > > http://warrenwolk.com/ > > http://tri-statebassmasters.com/ > > > Leave for 3 days… and only 10 new threads??? Heck… I thought I was > > > missing out on something. > > > — > > > Visit Charles at: www.thebasspro.net > > > My new Motto: "Too invested to quit" > > > www.outdoorfrontiers.com > > > www.midtennclassic.org

Response:

Sorry you didn’t get to visit with Bob.  I hope you & Ledbelly do great. The Trap strategy is a winner up here when the temps are 48-60 degrees, I can tell you that pal. Full report expected! Warren

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Unfortunately, I was unable to visit. Had alot of bass to discuss with him > too. > Ledbelly and I will have to hit the Priest in the morning to make up for it > though. Water level and temps are dropping, and the winds are up. Should be > an interesting morning. I’m thinking Chrome/Blue Rattletraps myself! What’s > your opinion? > — > Visit Charles at: www.thebasspro.net > My new Motto: "Too invested to quit" > www.outdoorfrontiers.com > www.midtennclassic.org > Welcome back Charles.  How was your visit with Bob?  You didn’t talk about > bass fishing by any chance, did ya? > Warren > — > http://www.fishingworld.com/MesaTackleSupply/ > http://www.millenniumcustomrods.com/ > http://warrenwolk.com/ > http://tri-statebassmasters.com/ > > Leave for 3 days… and only 10 new threads??? Heck… I thought I was > > missing out on something. > > — > > Visit Charles at: www.thebasspro.net > > My new Motto: "Too invested to quit" > > www.outdoorfrontiers.com > > www.midtennclassic.org

Response:

Leave for 3 days… and only 10 new threads??? Heck… I thought I was missing out on something. — Visit Charles at: www.thebasspro.net My new Motto: "Too invested to quit" www.outdoorfrontiers.com www.midtennclassic.org

Response:

Welcome back Charles.  How was your visit with Bob?  You didn’t talk about bass fishing by any chance, did ya? Warren — http://www.fishingworld.com/MesaTackleSupply/ http://www.millenniumcustomrods.com/ http://warrenwolk.com/ http://tri-statebassmasters.com/

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Leave for 3 days… and only 10 new threads??? Heck… I thought I was > missing out on something. > — > Visit Charles at: www.thebasspro.net > My new Motto: "Too invested to quit" > www.outdoorfrontiers.com > www.midtennclassic.org

Response:

Unfortunately, I was unable to visit. Had alot of bass to discuss with him too. Ledbelly and I will have to hit the Priest in the morning to make up for it though. Water level and temps are dropping, and the winds are up. Should be an interesting morning. I’m thinking Chrome/Blue Rattletraps myself! What’s your opinion? — Visit Charles at: www.thebasspro.net My new Motto: "Too invested to quit" www.outdoorfrontiers.com www.midtennclassic.org

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Welcome back Charles.  How was your visit with Bob?  You didn’t talk about > bass fishing by any chance, did ya? > Warren > — > http://www.fishingworld.com/MesaTackleSupply/ > http://www.millenniumcustomrods.com/ > http://warrenwolk.com/ > http://tri-statebassmasters.com/ > Leave for 3 days… and only 10 new threads??? Heck… I thought I was > missing out on something. > — > Visit Charles at: www.thebasspro.net > My new Motto: "Too invested to quit" > www.outdoorfrontiers.com > www.midtennclassic.org

Response:

> I decided to finally look around the newsgroups and see what there was to > see – it will definitely be my last visit.  

I wonder if you did come back to see if anybody read your post and made comment?

Response:

I decided to finally look around the newsgroups and see what there was to see – it will definitely be my last visit.  I belong to a few dog-related discussion lists on the ‘net, and the behavior of some of the AOL posters on this newsgroup would get them bounced of those lists so fast they would get thrown back in their chairs!  The language is horrible, and the personal insults and flames are incredibly childish.  For those of you who agree, and want a more appropriate discussion list – look around in Pet Care Forum for the addresses of breed and other dog-related lists – I think you’ll find the internet lists much more civil, and useful.  I’m not saying that discussions don’t get heated, and there may be an occassional flame or poor choice of words – but it is the exception rather than the rule that it appears to be on this list!  I believe that some of the AOL posters will be "left behind" because their behavior would not be tolerated.  Sure glad I’m not a family member or pet of some of the folks on here!

Response:

> I decided to finally look around the newsgroups and see what there was to > see – it will definitely be my last visit.  

I wonder if you did come back to see if anybody read your post and made comment?

Response:

I decided to finally look around the newsgroups and see what there was to see – it will definitely be my last visit.  I belong to a few dog-related discussion lists on the ‘net, and the behavior of some of the AOL posters on this newsgroup would get them bounced of those lists so fast they would get thrown back in their chairs!  The language is horrible, and the personal insults and flames are incredibly childish.  For those of you who agree, and want a more appropriate discussion list – look around in Pet Care Forum for the addresses of breed and other dog-related lists – I think you’ll find the internet lists much more civil, and useful.  I’m not saying that discussions don’t get heated, and there may be an occassional flame or poor choice of words – but it is the exception rather than the rule that it appears to be on this list!  I believe that some of the AOL posters will be "left behind" because their behavior would not be tolerated.  Sure glad I’m not a family member or pet of some of the folks on here!

Response:

> I decided to finally look around the newsgroups and see what there was to > see – it will definitely be my last visit.  

I wonder if you did come back to see if anybody read your post and made comment?

Response:

I decided to finally look around the newsgroups and see what there was to see – it will definitely be my last visit.  I belong to a few dog-related discussion lists on the ‘net, and the behavior of some of the AOL posters on this newsgroup would get them bounced of those lists so fast they would get thrown back in their chairs!  The language is horrible, and the personal insults and flames are incredibly childish.  For those of you who agree, and want a more appropriate discussion list – look around in Pet Care Forum for the addresses of breed and other dog-related lists – I think you’ll find the internet lists much more civil, and useful.  I’m not saying that discussions don’t get heated, and there may be an occassional flame or poor choice of words – but it is the exception rather than the rule that it appears to be on this list!  I believe that some of the AOL posters will be "left behind" because their behavior would not be tolerated.  Sure glad I’m not a family member or pet of some of the folks on here!

Response:

> I decided to finally look around the newsgroups and see what there was to > see – it will definitely be my last visit.  

I wonder if you did come back to see if anybody read your post and made comment?

Response:

I decided to finally look around the newsgroups and see what there was to see – it will definitely be my last visit.  I belong to a few dog-related discussion lists on the ‘net, and the behavior of some of the AOL posters on this newsgroup would get them bounced of those lists so fast they would get thrown back in their chairs!  The language is horrible, and the personal insults and flames are incredibly childish.  For those of you who agree, and want a more appropriate discussion list – look around in Pet Care Forum for the addresses of breed and other dog-related lists – I think you’ll find the internet lists much more civil, and useful.  I’m not saying that discussions don’t get heated, and there may be an occassional flame or poor choice of words – but it is the exception rather than the rule that it appears to be on this list!  I believe that some of the AOL posters will be "left behind" because their behavior would not be tolerated.  Sure glad I’m not a family member or pet of some of the folks on here!

Response:

> I decided to finally look around the newsgroups and see what there was to > see – it will definitely be my last visit.  

I wonder if you did come back to see if anybody read your post and made comment?

Response:

I decided to finally look around the newsgroups and see what there was to see – it will definitely be my last visit.  I belong to a few dog-related discussion lists on the ‘net, and the behavior of some of the AOL posters on this newsgroup would get them bounced of those lists so fast they would get thrown back in their chairs!  The language is horrible, and the personal insults and flames are incredibly childish.  For those of you who agree, and want a more appropriate discussion list – look around in Pet Care Forum for the addresses of breed and other dog-related lists – I think you’ll find the internet lists much more civil, and useful.  I’m not saying that discussions don’t get heated, and there may be an occassional flame or poor choice of words – but it is the exception rather than the rule that it appears to be on this list!  I believe that some of the AOL posters will be "left behind" because their behavior would not be tolerated.  Sure glad I’m not a family member or pet of some of the folks on here!

Response:

> I decided to finally look around the newsgroups and see what there was to > see – it will definitely be my last visit.  

I wonder if you did come back to see if anybody read your post and made comment?

Response:

I decided to finally look around the newsgroups and see what there was to see – it will definitely be my last visit.  I belong to a few dog-related discussion lists on the ‘net, and the behavior of some of the AOL posters on this newsgroup would get them bounced of those lists so fast they would get thrown back in their chairs!  The language is horrible, and the personal insults and flames are incredibly childish.  For those of you who agree, and want a more appropriate discussion list – look around in Pet Care Forum for the addresses of breed and other dog-related lists – I think you’ll find the internet lists much more civil, and useful.  I’m not saying that discussions don’t get heated, and there may be an occassional flame or poor choice of words – but it is the exception rather than the rule that it appears to be on this list!  I believe that some of the AOL posters will be "left behind" because their behavior would not be tolerated.  Sure glad I’m not a family member or pet of some of the folks on here!

Response:

> I decided to finally look around the newsgroups and see what there was to > see – it will definitely be my last visit.  

I wonder if you did come back to see if anybody read your post and made comment?

Response:

I decided to finally look around the newsgroups and see what there was to see – it will definitely be my last visit.  I belong to a few dog-related discussion lists on the ‘net, and the behavior of some of the AOL posters on this newsgroup would get them bounced of those lists so fast they would get thrown back in their chairs!  The language is horrible, and the personal insults and flames are incredibly childish.  For those of you who agree, and want a more appropriate discussion list – look around in Pet Care Forum for the addresses of breed and other dog-related lists – I think you’ll find the internet lists much more civil, and useful.  I’m not saying that discussions don’t get heated, and there may be an occassional flame or poor choice of words – but it is the exception rather than the rule that it appears to be on this list!  I believe that some of the AOL posters will be "left behind" because their behavior would not be tolerated.  Sure glad I’m not a family member or pet of some of the folks on here!

Response:

> I decided to finally look around the newsgroups and see what there was to > see – it will definitely be my last visit.  

I wonder if you did come back to see if anybody read your post and made comment?

Response:

I decided to finally look around the newsgroups and see what there was to see – it will definitely be my last visit.  I belong to a few dog-related discussion lists on the ‘net, and the behavior of some of the AOL posters on this newsgroup would get them bounced of those lists so fast they would get thrown back in their chairs!  The language is horrible, and the personal insults and flames are incredibly childish.  For those of you who agree, and want a more appropriate discussion list – look around in Pet Care Forum for the addresses of breed and other dog-related lists – I think you’ll find the internet lists much more civil, and useful.  I’m not saying that discussions don’t get heated, and there may be an occassional flame or poor choice of words – but it is the exception rather than the rule that it appears to be on this list!  I believe that some of the AOL posters will be "left behind" because their behavior would not be tolerated.  Sure glad I’m not a family member or pet of some of the folks on here!

Response:

> I decided to finally look around the newsgroups and see what there was to > see – it will definitely be my last visit.  

I wonder if you did come back to see if anybody read your post and made comment?

Response:

I decided to finally look around the newsgroups and see what there was to see – it will definitely be my last visit.  I belong to a few dog-related discussion lists on the ‘net, and the behavior of some of the AOL posters on this newsgroup would get them bounced of those lists so fast they would get thrown back in their chairs!  The language is horrible, and the personal insults and flames are incredibly childish.  For those of you who agree, and want a more appropriate discussion list – look around in Pet Care Forum for the addresses of breed and other dog-related lists – I think you’ll find the internet lists much more civil, and useful.  I’m not saying that discussions don’t get heated, and there may be an occassional flame or poor choice of words – but it is the exception rather than the rule that it appears to be on this list!  I believe that some of the AOL posters will be "left behind" because their behavior would not be tolerated.  Sure glad I’m not a family member or pet of some of the folks on here!

Response:

> I decided to finally look around the newsgroups and see what there was to > see – it will definitely be my last visit.  

I wonder if you did come back to see if anybody read your post and made comment?

Response:

I decided to finally look around the newsgroups and see what there was to see – it will definitely be my last visit.  I belong to a few dog-related discussion lists on the ‘net, and the behavior of some of the AOL posters on this newsgroup would get them bounced of those lists so fast they would get thrown back in their chairs!  The language is horrible, and the personal insults and flames are incredibly childish.  For those of you who agree, and want a more appropriate discussion list – look around in Pet Care Forum for the addresses of breed and other dog-related lists – I think you’ll find the internet lists much more civil, and useful.  I’m not saying that discussions don’t get heated, and there may be an occassional flame or poor choice of words – but it is the exception rather than the rule that it appears to be on this list!  I believe that some of the AOL posters will be "left behind" because their behavior would not be tolerated.  Sure glad I’m not a family member or pet of some of the folks on here!

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>x-no-archive: yes >    If I understand this, you think BPII’s should re-evaluate our medication on >the basis of your experience that encompasses less than a month.  To boot you are >19, most people have their first major episode in their late twenties.  If >medication does not agree with you, and you do fine without it, great.  However, I >think you have to look a little further than your own brief experience before you >decide that we are poorly informed.  You may be eating your words later.  You are >still very young, and this disease progresses.  Maybe you have read about the >’Kindling Theory’.  Last but not least, you may have been misdiagnosed.  Come back >in a few years.

Which is the kind way of putting it.  Thank you John for showing this young man back into his little neurotic closet—-IS – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hey, guys.  I haven’t posted in a while, so let me fill you in on the goods: I > think the last I told you, I had been on a bad mixture of Depakote and > Wellbutrin.  This was the post: "I wanna be sane!" > Anyway, I needed to get off the Wellbutrin, and fast.  Since Depakote alone > was triggering depression, and the only real problem I had before all of > this started was hypomania, my Pdoc said that he thought I was ready (after > much begging on my part) to try to withdraw from the Depakote (and meds) > altogether.  He had me cut my intake to a half-dose for 2 weeks, then totally > drop it.  I’ve been completely off of meds for a whole week, and I haven’t > felt this good in so long!  This pretty much proves my theory that the goddam > meds actually induced bipolar in me.  My symptoms were so much worse when I > was on meds.  They hurt me much more than they helped.  I feel so strong that > I was able to break away from the madness, and just deal with my original > problem (hypomania) with a good diet, exercise, and relaxation techniques.  I > strongly recommend bipolar IIs who trust themselves to get up enough courage > (this may take weeks, months, or even years) to educate yourself about > your illness to the fullest extent, and believe in yourself enough to > influence your Pdoc into the decision that’s best for you.  Don’t settle for > second best.  If you felt better before, trust your instincts.  It may be well > worth it for you.  Yeah, I’m hypomanic again, and it’s a small struggle > every day, but it’s a sacrifice that I’m willing to make in exchange for a > piece of sanity and to be chemical-free. > Thanks! > Love to everyone, >               Heather. > "If I say it enough, I’ll believe that it’s not my fault."  (How to Survive a > Broken Heart- Ben Lee)

Response:

Hey, guys.  I haven’t posted in a while, so let me fill you in on the goods: I think the last I told you, I had been on a bad mixture of Depakote and Wellbutrin.  This was the post: "I wanna be sane!" Anyway, I needed to get off the Wellbutrin, and fast.  Since Depakote alone was triggering depression, and the only real problem I had before all of this started was hypomania, my Pdoc said that he thought I was ready (after much begging on my part) to try to withdraw from the Depakote (and meds) altogether.  He had me cut my intake to a half-dose for 2 weeks, then totally drop it.  I’ve been completely off of meds for a whole week, and I haven’t felt this good in so long!  This pretty much proves my theory that the goddam meds actually induced bipolar in me.  My symptoms were so much worse when I was on meds.  They hurt me much more than they helped.  I feel so strong that I was able to break away from the madness, and just deal with my original problem (hypomania) with a good diet, exercise, and relaxation techniques.  I strongly recommend bipolar IIs who trust themselves to get up enough courage (this may take weeks, months, or even years) to educate yourself about your illness to the fullest extent, and believe in yourself enough to influence your Pdoc into the decision that’s best for you.  Don’t settle for second best.  If you felt better before, trust your instincts.  It may be well worth it for you.  Yeah, I’m hypomanic again, and it’s a small struggle every day, but it’s a sacrifice that I’m willing to make in exchange for a piece of sanity and to be chemical-free. Thanks! Love to everyone,               Heather. "If I say it enough, I’ll believe that it’s not my fault."  (How to Survive a Broken Heart- Ben Lee)

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Question:

The rates for tardive dyskinesia are astronomical. The latest estimate from the American Psychiatric Association (1992, p. 68) indicates a rate for all patients of five per cent per year, so that 15 per cent of patients develop tardive dyskinesia within only three years. In long-term studies, the prevalence of tardive dyskinesia often exceeds 50 per cent of all treated patients and is probably much higher. The disease affects people of all ages, including children, but among older patients rates escalate. In a controlled study, 41 per cent of patients aged 65 and older developed tardive dyskinesia in a mere 24 months (Yassa et al., 1988). Hundreds of thousands of older people receive these drugs in nursing homes and state hospitals. — I’m not a humanitarian, I’m a hell-raiser."                      -Mother Jones

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Your math doesn’t work. 5 percent per year is ***5 percent per year***- out of 100 patients, 5 will show symptoms in a given year. The statistic is not cumulative. BTW:  TD is not necessarily permanent in everyone who shows initial symptoms, so stop the scare tactics.

> The rates for tardive dyskinesia are astronomical. The latest estimate from the American > Psychiatric Association (1992, p. 68) indicates a rate for all patients of five per cent > per year, so that 15 per cent of patients develop tardive dyskinesia within only three > years. In long-term studies, the prevalence of tardive dyskinesia often exceeds 50 per > cent of all treated patients and is probably much higher. The disease affects people of > all ages, including children, but among older patients rates escalate. In a controlled > study, 41 per cent of patients aged 65 and older developed tardive

dyskinesia in a mere 24 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> months (Yassa et al., 1988). Hundreds of thousands of older people receive these drugs in > nursing homes and state hospitals. > — > I’m not a humanitarian, I’m a hell-raiser." >                      -Mother Jones

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It is cumulative. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Your math doesn’t work. 5 percent per year is ***5 percent per year***- out >of 100 patients, 5 will show symptoms in a given year. The statistic is not >cumulative. >BTW:  TD is not necessarily permanent in everyone who shows initial >symptoms, so stop the scare tactics. > The rates for tardive dyskinesia are astronomical. The latest estimate >from the American > Psychiatric Association (1992, p. 68) indicates a rate for all patients of >five per cent > per year, so that 15 per cent of patients develop tardive dyskinesia >within only three > years. In long-term studies, the prevalence of tardive dyskinesia often >exceeds 50 per > cent of all treated patients and is probably much higher. The disease >affects people of > all ages, including children, but among older patients rates escalate. In >a controlled > study, 41 per cent of patients aged 65 and older developed tardive >dyskinesia in a mere 24 > months (Yassa et al., 1988). Hundreds of thousands of older people receive >these drugs in > nursing homes and state hospitals. > — > I’m not a humanitarian, I’m a hell-raiser." >                      -Mother Jones

Response:

wrong… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Your math doesn’t work. 5 percent per year is ***5 percent per year***- out >of 100 patients, 5 will show symptoms in a given year. The statistic is not >cumulative. >BTW:  TD is not necessarily permanent in everyone who shows initial >symptoms, so stop the scare tactics. > The rates for tardive dyskinesia are astronomical. The latest estimate >from the American > Psychiatric Association (1992, p. 68) indicates a rate for all patients of >five per cent > per year, so that 15 per cent of patients develop tardive dyskinesia >within only three > years. In long-term studies, the prevalence of tardive dyskinesia often >exceeds 50 per > cent of all treated patients and is probably much higher. The disease >affects people of > all ages, including children, but among older patients rates escalate. In >a controlled > study, 41 per cent of patients aged 65 and older developed tardive >dyskinesia in a mere 24 > months (Yassa et al., 1988). Hundreds of thousands of older people receive >these drugs in > nursing homes and state hospitals. > — > I’m not a humanitarian, I’m a hell-raiser." >                      -Mother Jones

– I’m not a humanitarian, I’m a hell-raiser."                      -Mother Jones

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Question:

> They don’t make any good points about anything but their pocketbook. > What you call good ‘points about psychiatry’ is simply playing on people’s > fears. > Take their so-called personality test two or three times under different > mindsets and compare your results. > I did that awhile back and came up with an interesting set of results. > One set gave me 95 percentile across the board except in the gullibility > section. > The other gave 15-20 percentile across the board except the gullibility > section. > Oddly enough the gullibility rating on both was identical. zero > PS.  I really wish you wouldn’t hijack other people’s ‘nyms.

oh well its always easy to tell whos who even with the header spoofing … which would have been a nice bit of work except the real S.C can spell…… — | Windows NT has detected that there were no errors | | for the past 10 minutes. The system will now try  | | to restart or crash. Click the OK button to       | | continue.                                         | |                       < Ok >                      |

Response:

Is there an echo in here, in here, in here, in her, in he, in h, in, i???

Response:

Have I told you the ‘That’s nice." joke?

Did you know that I live in Ron L. Hubbards old homeport?

Response:

http://www.the-answers.com/disconnection.html Doctor Exposes Psychiatry   In this following letter a doctor dissolves her 35 year association with the American Psychiatric Association: Loren R. Mosher M.D.  California, USA December 4, 1998 Rodrigo Munoz, M.D., President American Psychiatric Association Washington, D.C., USA   Dear Rod: After nearly three decades as a member it is with a mixture of pleasure and disappointment that   I submit this letter of resignation from the American Psychiatric Association. The major reason   for this action is my belief that I am actually resigning from the American Psychopharmacological Association. Luckily, the organization’s true identity requires no change in the acronym. APA reflects, and reinforces, in word and deed, our drug dependent society. Yet, it helps wage war on "drugs". "Dual Diagnosis" clients are a major problem for the field but not because of the "good" drugs we prescribe. "Bad" ones are those that are obtained mostly without a prescription. A Marxist would observe that being a good capitalist organization, APA likes only those drugs from which it can derive a profit–directly or indirectly.   This is not a group for me. At this point in history, in my view, psychiatry has been almost completely bought out by the drug companies. The APA could not continue without the pharmaceutical company support of meetings, symposia, workshops, journal advertising, grand rounds luncheons, unrestricted educational grants etc. etc. Psychiatrists have become the minions of drug company promotions.  APA, of course, maintains that its independence and autonomy are not compromised in this enmeshed situation.   Anyone with the least bit of common sense attending the annual meeting would observe how the drug company exhibits and industry sponsored symposia draw crowds with their various enticements while the serious scientific sessions are barely attended. Psychiatric training reflects their influence as well; i.e., the most important part of a resident curriculum is the art and quasi-science of dealing drugs, i.e., prescription writing. These psychopharmacological limitations on our abilities to be complete physicians also limit our intellectual horizons. No longer do we seek to understand whole persons in their social contexts, rather we are there to realign our patients’ neurotransmitters. The problem is that it is very difficult to have a relationship with a neurotransmitter, whatever its configuration. So, our guild organization provides a rationale, by its neurobiological tunnel vision, for keeping our distance from the molecule conglomerates we have come to define as patients.   We condone and promote the widespread overuse and misuse of toxic chemicals that we know have serious long term effects: tardive dyskinesia, tardive dementia and serious withdrawal syndromes.   So, do I want to be a drug company patsy who treats molecules with their formulary? No, thank you very much.   It saddens me that after 35 years as a psychiatrist I look forward to being dissociated from such an organization. In no way does it represent my interests. It is not within my capacities to buy into the current biomedical-reductionistic model heralded by the psychiatric leadership as once again marrying us to somatic medicine. This is a matter of fashion, politics and, like the pharmaceutical house connection, money. In addition, APA has entered into an unholy alliance with NAMI (I don’t remember the members being asked if they supported such an organization) such that the two organizations have adopted similar public belief systems about the nature of madness.   While professing itself the champion of their clients the APA is supporting non-clients, the parents, in their wishes to be in control, via legally enforced dependency, of their mad/bad offspring.  NAMI, with tacit APA approval, has set out a pro-neuroleptic drug and easy commitment-institutionalization agenda that violates the civil rights of their offspring.   For the most part we stand by and allow this fascistic agenda to move forward.   Their psychiatric god, Dr. E. Fuller Torrey, is allowed to diagnose and recommend treatment to those in the NAMI organization with whom he disagrees. Clearly, a violation of medical ethics. Does APA protest? Of course not, because he is speaking what APA agrees with but can’t explicitly espouse. He is allowed to be a foil; after all he is no longer a member of APA. (Slick work APA!) The shortsightedness of this marriage of convenience between APA, NAMI and the drug companies (who gleefully support both groups because of their shared pro-drug stance) is an abomination.   I want no part of a psychiatry of oppression and social control. Biologically based brain diseases are convenient for families and practitioners alike. It is no fault insurance against personal responsibility. We are just helplessly caught up in a swirl of brain pathology for which no one, except DNA, is responsible. Now, to begin with, anything that has an anatomically defined specific brain pathology becomes the province of neurology (syphilis is   an excellent example). So, to be consistent with this brain disease view all the major psychiatric disorders would become the territory of our neurologic colleagues. Without having surveyed them I believe they would eschew responsibility for these problematic individuals. However, consistency would demand our giving over biologic brain diseases to them.   The fact that there is no evidence confirming the brain disease attribution is, at this point, irrelevant. What we are dealing with here is fashion, politics and money. This level of intellectual/scientific dishonesty is just too egregious for me to continue to support by my membership. I view with no surprise that psychiatric training is being systemically disavowed by American medical school graduates. This must give us cause for concern about the state of today’s psychiatry. It must mean at least in part that they view psychiatry as being very limited and unchallenging.   To me it seems clear that we are headed toward a situation in which, except for academics, most psychiatric practitioners will have no real relationships–so vital to the healing process–with the disturbed and disturbing persons they treat. Their sole role will be that of prescription writers: ciphers in the guise of being "helpers". Finally, why must the APA pretend to know more than it does? DSM-IV is the fabrication upon which psychiatry seeks acceptance by medicine in general. Insiders know it is more a political than scientific document. To its credit it says so–although its brief apologia is rarely noted. DSM-IV has become a bible and a money making best seller–its major failings notwithstanding.   It confines and defines practice, some take it seriously, others more realistically. It is the way to get paid. Diagnostic reliability is easy to attain for research projects. The issue is what do the categories tell us? Do they in fact accurately represent the person with a problem?   They don’t, and can’t, because there are no external validating criteria for psychiatric diagnoses. There is neither a blood test nor specific anatomic lesions for any major psychiatric disorder. So, where are we? APA as an organization has implicitly (sometimes explicitly as well) bought into a theoretical hoax. Is psychiatry a hoax– as practiced today? Unfortunately, the answer is mostly yes. What do I recommend to the organization upon leaving after experiencing three decades of its history? 1. To begin with, let us be ourselves. Stop taking on unholy alliances without the members permission. 2. Get real about science, politics and money. Label each for what it is–that is, be honest. 3. Get out of bed with NAMI and the drug companies. APA should align itself, if one believes   its rhetoric, with the true consumer groups, i. e., the ex-patients, psychiatric survivors etc. 4. Talk to the membership. I can’t be alone in my views. We seem to have forgotten a basic principle: the need to be patient/client/consumer satisfaction oriented. I always remember Manfred Bleuler’s wisdom: "Loren, you must never forget that you are your patient’s employee. In the end they will determine whether or not psychiatry survives in the service marketplace. Sincerely, Loren R. Mosher M.D. By way of Piers Allott International Mental Health Network — I’m not a humanitarian, I’m a hell-raiser."                      -Mother Jones

Response:

Did you know that I live in Ron L. Hubbards old homeport? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->They don’t make any good points about anything but their pocketbook. >What you call good ‘points about psychiatry’ is simply playing on people’s >fears. >Take their so-called personality test two or three times under different >mindsets and compare your results. >I did that awhile back and came up with an interesting set of results. >One set gave me 95 percentile across the board except in the gullibility >section. >The other gave 15-20 percentile across the board except the gullibility >section. >Oddly enough the gullibility rating on both was identical. zero >PS.  I really wish you wouldn’t hijack other people’s ‘nyms. >Ha I’m an athiest.. but scientology does make some good points about >psychiatry.. >Polanski" >When did you switch to supporting the Scientology scam, LostBoy?

Response:

They don’t make any good points about anything but their pocketbook. What you call good ‘points about psychiatry’ is simply playing on people’s fears. Take their so-called personality test two or three times under different mindsets and compare your results. I did that awhile back and came up with an interesting set of results. One set gave me 95 percentile across the board except in the gullibility section. The other gave 15-20 percentile across the board except the gullibility section. Oddly enough the gullibility rating on both was identical. zero PS.  I really wish you wouldn’t hijack other people’s ‘nyms.

Ha I’m an athiest.. but scientology does make some good points about psychiatry.. Polanski" >When did you switch to supporting the Scientology scam, LostBoy?

– WorthiestSSRI says: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Styx/6307

Response:

I’m not interested in their religion or their personality tests.. much of scientology is bull pucky… But they do make some good points about psychiatric drugz. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->They don’t make any good points about anything but their pocketbook. >What you call good ‘points about psychiatry’ is simply playing on people’s >fears. >Take their so-called personality test two or three times under different >mindsets and compare your results. >I did that awhile back and came up with an interesting set of results. >One set gave me 95 percentile across the board except in the gullibility >section. >The other gave 15-20 percentile across the board except the gullibility >section. >Oddly enough the gullibility rating on both was identical. zero >PS.  I really wish you wouldn’t hijack other people’s ‘nyms. >Ha I’m an athiest.. but scientology does make some good points about >psychiatry.. >Polanski" >When did you switch to supporting the Scientology scam, LostBoy?

– WorthiestSSRI says: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Styx/6307

Response:

Ha I’m an athiest.. but scientology does make some good points about psychiatry.. >When did you switch to supporting the Scientology scam, LostBoy?

– WorthiestSSRI says: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Styx/6307

Response:

When did you switch to supporting the Scientology scam, LostBoy?

Response:

Question:

Just hope everyone realizes that I made up the part about the man dressed as a condom. Once I started creating the phoney article about Halloween, the keyboard sorta took over. (grin) YRAC

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Am I learning anything from reading this? > You may not be, however *I* find it interesting. > ~Susan

Response:

"Stuart J. Shillinglaw" asked: > Am I learning anything from reading this?

YRAC responds: At a party, a well-known writer was approached by a lady who inquired whether his last book contained any particular "message". "For you, My Dear," the author replied, "apparently not."

Response:

>Am I learning anything from reading this? >– >http://www.geocities.com/effectivestu/schizophrenia/

Well you clearly have not learned how to NOT read what you don’t want to read. — I’m not a humanitarian, I’m a hell-raiser."                      -Mother Jones

Response:

> Am I learning anything from reading this?

You may not be, however *I* find it interesting. ~Susan

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> I find reading rants like this to be a waste of time. I got about >> half way through and realized I was not learning anything. >> — >> http://www.geocities.com/effectivestu/schizophrenia/ > That was a rant? >I have already broken the rules of the locals here at >alt.support.schizophrenia by answering this crossposter. I guess this >person thinks they are going to enlighten everyone. >– >http://www.geocities.com/effectivestu/schizophrenia/

There are no rulz.. — I’m not a humanitarian, I’m a hell-raiser."                      -Mother Jones

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Continue the History of Halloween with this item: 21st Century After decades of dealing with razor blades in apples and other tainted "treats", Americans began searching for alternate ways to celebrate Halloween which would be safer. At first, the push was to give only commercially prepared and wrapped candy. This evolved further into large "trick or treat" sessions sponsored by local shopping malls. Churches and other groups began conducting Fall Festivals. Both served to get children in dark costumes off  the streets, greatly reducing the number struck by automobiles. Another tradition which arose in the late 20th and early 21st centuries was increased participation by adults. Halloween became one of the biggest "party" events of the year, and sales of adult-sized costumes soared. Some people explained this as "overgrown children who would not let go of their childhood". Others complained that adults had "stolen" the holiday from the youngsters. Among children and adults alike, costumes shifted from ghosts and skeletons to dressing as popular personalities. The sitting President was a popular item, as were movie stars and characters from recent movies. [See "Star Wars" and "Harry Potter"].  At adult parties, sexual themes also prevailed. [See "Man Dressed As Condom Suffocates In Plastic Wrapper".] The future of Halloween is unclear, but it undoubtedly will be interesting. Be sure to come back in 100 years to read the 22nd CENTURY installment of this article!

Response:

>Continue the History of Halloween with this item: >21st Century >After decades of dealing with razor blades in apples and other tainted >"treats", Americans began searching for alternate ways to celebrate >Halloween which would be safer.

Mass hysteria is what ruined halloween, not razor blades in apples. — Steroids caused my depression, infertility, breast development and shrunken testicles …prednisone should be used conservatively Eric

Response:

>> the lighted Jack-O-Laterns the children carry are really a symbol of > the fires and torches of former Halloweens and of the ancient > Samhain. >I find reading rants like this to be a waste of time. I got about half >way through and realized I was not learning anything. >– >http://www.geocities.com/effectivestu/schizophrenia/

That was a rant? — I’m not a humanitarian, I’m a hell-raiser."                      -Mother Jones

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The Meaning of Halloween  If you thought Halloween was a time for children dressed in cute costumes of witches goblins, ghosts or devils to knock at your door calling, "TRICK OR TREAT", you had better wise up! There is more to Halloween…. much more! Did you know that Halloween is a day "witches" celebrate above all other days? Witches have 8 major festivals throughout the year. The major witchcraft festival is October 31 or better known as Halloween. Witchcraft is not child’s play.  It is a woman centric religion that scared the shit out of the male dominated catholic church so they called it an abomination in the eye’s of God. From 1575 to the 1700’s many people were burned at the stake for their real or suspected involvement in witchcraft. Yet, today witchcraft has gained acceptability by many people. Even the IRS has given tax exempt status to the church of Wicca (the official church of witchcraft). There is no difference in the eye’s of the U.S.Government between tithing to the church of Wicca, and tithing to the Church of Jesus Christ. The Halloween Witch The Halloween Witch is a strange-looking female in black cloak and a peaked hat riding a broomstick along with her symbolic cat. Her name is derived from the Saxon word Wicca, which means ‘wise one.’ The broomstick, originally made from a stalk of the broom plant with a bunch of leaves at the head, was said to be used by poor witches who went on foot. The broom or pole was used to vault over brooks, streams or thorny patches. Due to its use as an indoor cleaning supply, the broom became the symbol of women. The black of a witch’s cloak reminds us that Halloween is a ‘festival of the dead’ The Seventh Century All Saints’ Day(All Souls Day), a day the seventh century church set aside in memory of early Christians who died for their beliefs. It was first celebrated in the month of May. (By the year 900 the date had been changed to November 1.) Another name for All Saints’ Day was All Hallows. October 31 was known as All Hallows’ Eve,which was later shortened to Halloween. The Archbishop of Canterbury, England, set punishments for "those who goeth about in the masque of a stag of a bull-calf …those who by their craft raise storms… sacrifice to demons…consulteth soothsayers who divine by birds." The people described by the Archbishop worshipped a horned god. This god usually was a goat, bull or ram, but sometimes a man or woman wearing skins and the head of an animal. During their magical rites they would dance about in a circle, barking and howling.At midnight, using a bronze sickle, they would gather herbs. Spells were cast or enemies bewitched by sticking thorns into a wax model of the person.They also brewed love potions and concocted poisons.The skins of snakes and the saliva and intestines of animals were dropped into their cauldrons. The wings and entrails of bats also went into their brews. At the end of the ceremony they sacrificed and ate the animal god. Their rites and ceremonies expressed their closeness to all animal life, and their desire to help it grow. The Tenth Century In the tenth century,King Edgar of England admitted that witchcraft was more popular than Christianity. It was then that it’s followers became known as witches. While All Hallows’ Eve originally had been a strictly Christian holiday, the pagan influences from earlier traditions gradually crept in. Soon Halloween became a secular observance, and many customs and practices developed. Druids The earliest celebrations of Halloween began among the Celts, who lived more than 2,000 years ago. Celtic countries celebrated the Vigil of Samhain in honor of their god, Samhain lord of the dead. In order to please Samhain, the Druids held cruel fire rites . Prisoners of war, criminals, or animals were burned alive in odd- shaped baskets. By observing the way they died, the Druids saw omens of the future, good and bad. The Druids also put on grotesque and terrifying costumes. They believed that if you dressed in a horrible enough fashion and went trooping around with the spirits all night, they would think you were one of them and do you no harm. The Celts believed that when these spirits came to your house, if you did not TREAT them, they would TRICK you. Customs Not all ‘dressing up’ on Halloween comes from pagan rituals. It also has it origins in the Roman Catholic Church, The main church of Ireland. On All Hallows, many churches staged plays called pageants for the benefit of their members. Each participant dressed up as a patron saint. Those who did not play the part of a ‘holy one’ played the part of devils. Soon, nearly all of Ireland thought of October 31 as a night for dressing up in costumes. Gradually, Halloween costumes changed from the traditional horses, saints, and devils to witches, ghosts, and goblins. To some, the costumes were believed to scare away the real demons. In time, the custom of dressing up in costume and the custom of going from house to house in search of "treats" combined. Just as people once offered gifts of food to the spirits, people today offer treats to the children who represent them. In reality, the lighted Jack-O-Laterns the children carry are really a symbol of the fires and torches of former Halloweens and of the ancient Samhain. — WARNING! When trying to withdraw from many psychiatric drugs, patients can develop serious and even life-threatening emotional and physical reactions. In short, it is dangerous not only to start taking psychiatric drugs but also can be hazardous to stop taking them. Therefore, withdrawal from psychiatric drugs should be done under clinical supervision. Principles of drug withdrawal are discussed in Your Drug May Be Your Problem: How and Why to Stop Taking Psychiatric Medications. information on Prozac and Prozac-like drugs can be found in Talking Back to Prozac by Peter R. Breggin, M.D. and Ginger Ross Breggin. DSM IV is the fabrication upon which psychiatry seeks acceptance by medicine in general. Insiders know it is more a political than scientific document. To its credit it says so –Loren R. Mosher, M.D.

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Question:

>I am a research addict. I can’t help myself. <big grin>

Good for you…. Everyone should do their homework. — Steroids caused my depression, infertility, breast development and shrunken testicles …prednisone should be used conservatively Eric

Response:

I am a research addict. I can’t help myself. <big grin> The more I read about the beneficial health effects of long-chain omega-3 fatty acids, the more convinced I am that every person should be taking them. If you have any sort of mental disorder, I cannot emphasize enough, take fish oil! There is now evidence that DHA, the longer of the two omega-3 in fish oil, actually regulates transcription of DNA in the brain. It not only acts as a functional component of neuronal membranes, making the receptors work better, it also helps control the number of receptors, and how sensitive they are (among other things). People sometimes report that they have problems taking fish oil, due to stomach upset. There may be a good scientific reason for that……if you’re deficient in essential fatty acids, you do not secrete bile sufficient for the absorption of fatty acids, and you get stomach upset, gas, and possibly, diarrhea. The only solution is to start at a low dose, and gradually work up as tolerance builds. (The same holds true for many nutrients, by the way. Deficiency of some nutrients is actually caused by deficiency of those same nutrients, because of malabsorption.) Another reason for stomach upset is poor quality fish oil. If you break a capsule open, it should not smell strongly ‘fishy’. In any case, if stomach upset occurs, try changing brands. Look for one with tocopherol added (a natural preservative, vitamin E). I’ve posted links to Medline articles, from which I’ve extracted some quotations. If your browser does not show the whole link as highlighted text, make sure you paste in the wrapped portion. Some of these articles also have links to full-text versions. If so, there will be a link right below the title, on the Medline page. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&… ds=12002796&dopt=Abstract "Dietary n-3 FA deficiency influences specific neurotransmitter systems, particularly the dopamine systems of the frontal cortex." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&… ds=11929197&dopt=Abstract "Phospholipid supplementation induced a significant increase of b-wave amplitude in both control and deficient groups and restored normal fatty acid composition in brain regions and retina in deficient mice. DHA-rich phospholipids may improve learning ability, visual function and reverse biochemical modifications in old mice fed an n-3 polyunsaturated fatty acid-deficient diet; they also may improve visual function in old mice fed a balanced diet." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&… ds=11724460&dopt=Abstract "Comprehensive clinical studies have shown that dietary supplementation with marine oil or single-cell oil sources of LC-PUFA results in increased blood levels of DHA and arachidonic acid, as well as an associated improvement in visual function in formula-fed infants matching that of human breast-fed infants. The effect is mediated not only by the known effects on membrane biophysicalproperties, neurotransmitter content, and the corresponding electrophysiological correlates but also by a modulating gene expression of the developing retina and brain…..DHA also has significant effects on photoreceptor membranes and neurotransmitters involved in the signal transduction process; rhodopsin activation, rod and cone development, neuronal dendritic connectivity, and functional maturation of the central nervous system." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&… ds=2139096&dopt=Abstract "The results of serial biopsy samples of the cerebral cortex indicated that the changes of brain fatty acid composition began as early as 1 week after fish oil feeding and stabilized at 12 weeks. The DHA content of the phosphatidylethanolamine of the frontal cortex increased progressively from 3.9 +/- 1.2 to 28.4 +/- 1.7 percent of total fatty acids. The n-6 fatty acid, 22:5, abnormally high in the cerebral cortex of n-3 deficient monkeys, decreased reciprocally from 16.2 +/- 3.1 to 1.6 +/- 0.4%. The half-life (t 1/2) of DHA in brain phosphatidylethanolamine was estimated to be 21 days….The biochemical evidence of n-3 fatty acid deficiency was completely corrected." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&… ds=11590222&dopt=Abstract "These results indicate that the altered learning behavior associated with a long-term n-3 fatty acid deficiency is reversed by supplementing 22:6n-3 after weaning, when the levels of competing n-6 fatty acids in the diet and brain lipids are limited." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&… ds=11880617&dopt=Abstract "The altered genes included those controlling synaptic plasticity, cytosceleton and membrane association, signal transduction, ion channel formation, energy metabolism, and regulatory proteins. This effect seems to be independent of the chain length of fatty acids, but the n-3 structure appears to be important. Because n-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids have been shown to play an important role in maintaining normal mental functions and docosahexaenoic acid-containing ethanolamine phosphoglyceride (18:0/22:6) molecular species accumulated in response to n-3 fatty acid feeding, a casual relationship between the two events can be surmised." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&… ds=12296294&dopt=Abstract "Feeding fish oil results in partial replacement of arachidonic acid in inflammatory cell membranes by EPA. This change leads to decreased production of arachidonic acid-derived mediators. This response alone is a potentially beneficial anti-inflammatory effect of n-3 PUFA. However, n-3 PUFA have a number of other effects which might occur downstream of altered eicosanoid production or might be independent of this activity. For example, animal and human studies have shown that dietary fish oil results in suppressed production of pro-inflammatory cytokines and can decrease adhesion molecule expression. These effects occur at the level of altered gene expression. This action might come about through antagonism of the effects of arachidonic acid-derived mediators or through more direct actions on the intracellular signalling pathways which lead to activation of transcription factors such as nuclear factor kappa B (NFB). Recent studies have shown that n-3 PUFA can down regulate the activity of the nuclear transcription factor NFB." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&… ds=11725696&dopt=Abstract "The supplement group received the ingredients in chow inserts at a dosage that was equivalent to three times the maximum safe daily dosage for fish oil and the usual daily dosage for garlic (the maximum safe daily dosage recommended by the United States Food And Drug Administration for a 70-kg human is a total of 3 g/day intake of EPA and HDA omega-3 fatty acids from conventional and dietary sources….Acutely and chronically, there were no differences in external appearance, level of activity, daily food consumption, blood cell count, kidney function, thyroid function, prothrombin time (PT), and activated partial prothrombin time (PTT), which remained within normal ranges in the supplement group. Organ histology remained unchanged. Although during the chronic toxicity period the triglyceride and LDL suppression persisted, it was noted that total cholesterol and HDL levels increased." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&… ds=10617969&dopt=Abstract "In the United States, intake of n-3 fatty acids is approximately 1.6 g/d ( approximately 0.7% of energy), of which 1.4 g is alpha-linolenic acid (ALA; 18:3) and 0.1-0.2 g is eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA; 20:5) and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA; 22:6)….Attaining the proposed recommended combined EPA and DHA intake of 0.65 g/d will require an approximately 4-fold increase in fish consumption in the United States." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&… ds=11844977&dopt=Abstract "For adults, n-3 long chain polyunsaturated fatty acid supplementation is implicated in improving a wide range of clinical pathologies involving cardiac, kidney, and neural tissues. Studies generally agree that whole body conversion of 18:3n-3 to 22:6n-3 is below 5% in humans, and depends on the concentration of n-6 fatty acids and long chain polyunsaturated fatty acids in the diet." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&… ds=11478378&dopt=Abstract "…brain slices from Et-DHA-treated fetuses formed less oxidation products, as detected by thiobarbituric acid (TBA), compared to controls. Furthermore, brain-lipid extracts from Et-DHA but not ethyl-oleate treated fetuses, exhibited hydroxyl radical scavenging activity, as demonstrated by electron spin-resonance technique. Part of the beneficial effect of Et-DHA administration on the fetal brain may be attributed to enhanced free-radical scavenging capability, a phenomenon not directly related to vitamin E or lipid-soluble antioxidant levels." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&… ds=8093816&dopt=Abstract "In our experiments, feeding animals with oils that have a low alpha-linolenic content results in all brain cells and organelles and various organs in reduced amounts of 22:6(n-3), compensated by an increase in 22:5(n-6). The speed of recuperation from these anomalies is extremely slow for brain cells, organelles and microvessels, in contrast with other organs. A decrease in alpha-linolenic series acids in the membranes results in a 40% reduction in the Na-K-ATPase of nerve terminals and a 20% reduction in 5′-nucleotidase. Some other enzymatic activities are not affected, although membrane fluidity is altered. A diet low in ALNA induces alterations in the electroretinogram which … read more »

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Question:

you clearly hate enough for everyone.. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Wow finding ways to justify the murder of innocent children.   >Something you are good at Im sure with your spamming of  pro-Arab >propaganda. >Well may as well kill >american children cuz they’ll grow up to pollute the planet… >Im sure youve done it already.  You see Americans and Israelis arent >very hip in the current left orthodoxy. Got to check your orders >though , its always changing. Who to hate and praise next ?

– Steroids caused my depression, infertility, breast development and shrunken testicles …prednisone should be used conservatively Eric

Response:

Please keep this kind of garbage off of this newsgroup!

> Wow finding ways to justify the murder of innocent children.  Well may as well kill > american children cuz they’ll grow up to pollute the planet…

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->The Israeli’s were attacking militants and the children (who would have >grown up to be suicide bombers anyway) were not the intended target.  How >about the Israeli children, and American tourists who are killed on a >regular basis by the Palestinians, who target non-military targets? >> Two children among eight Palestinians killed by Israeli tanks in Gaza >> AFP Friday October 18, 04:49 AM >> Israeli tanks killed eight Palestinians, including two children, Thursday >> when they returned fire at Palestinian militants who launched rockets at >> them in the southern Gaza Strip town of Rafah, Palestinian and Israeli >> officials said. > — > I’m not a humanitarian, I’m a hell-raiser." >                      -Mother Jones

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Wow finding ways to justify the murder of innocent children.  Well may as well kill american children cuz they’ll grow up to pollute the planet… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >The Israeli’s were attacking militants and the children (who would have >grown up to be suicide bombers anyway) were not the intended target.  How >about the Israeli children, and American tourists who are killed on a >regular basis by the Palestinians, who target non-military targets? > Two children among eight Palestinians killed by Israeli tanks in Gaza > AFP Friday October 18, 04:49 AM > Israeli tanks killed eight Palestinians, including two children, Thursday > when they returned fire at Palestinian militants who launched rockets at > them in the southern Gaza Strip town of Rafah, Palestinian and Israeli > officials said.

– I’m not a humanitarian, I’m a hell-raiser."                      -Mother Jones

Response:

The Israeli’s were attacking militants and the children (who would have grown up to be suicide bombers anyway) were not the intended target.  How about the Israeli children, and American tourists who are killed on a regular basis by the Palestinians, who target non-military targets? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Two children among eight Palestinians killed by Israeli tanks in Gaza > AFP Friday October 18, 04:49 AM > Israeli tanks killed eight Palestinians, including two children, Thursday > when they returned fire at Palestinian militants who launched rockets at > them in the southern Gaza Strip town of Rafah, Palestinian and Israeli > officials said.

Response:

Sell a Home for Top $ http://us.click.yahoo.com/RrPZMC/jTmEAA/jd3IAA/7gSolB/TM Two children among eight Palestinians killed by Israeli tanks in Gaza AFP Friday October 18, 04:49 AM Israeli tanks killed eight Palestinians, including two children, Thursday when they returned fire at Palestinian militants who launched rockets at them in the southern Gaza Strip town of Rafah, Palestinian and Israeli officials said. The killings came a day after Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon held talks in Washington with US President George W. Bush, who asked Sharon before his visit to curb the alarming number of Palestinian civilians killed by Israeli forces. Among the latest dead were a four-year-old girl and a 12-year-old child, two young men and two elderly women, Rafah hospital director Ali Mussa told AFP. Two bodies were still on the scene of the shooting and could not be evacuated by ambulance, Palestinian officials said. The injured included a young girl in critical condition and a dozen people listed as seriously hurt, he said. The Israeli tanks fired three shells at houses and blasted them with heavy machine-gun fire after Palestinian militants fired on Israeli army bulldozers building a wall on the Egyptian border, witnesses said. Israeli army spokeswoman Captain Sharon Feingold said the Israeli force had come under fire from "anti-tank missiles." "This is another case of Palestinian terrorists using the civilian population to hide behind and conduct terrorist activity," she told AFP. Israeli Defense Minister Binyamin Ben Eliezer expressed regret over the clash. "We regret that there were any civilian victims and we do everything possible to avoid" such cases, Ben Eliezer told Israeli television. "As far as I know, three terrorists were killed in an exchange of fire, but I will know exactly what happened in a day or two, after an investigation by the army," he said. But the Palestinian leadership, in a statement, promptly condemned "this new massacre by Israeli tank shells against a refugee school and houses in Rafah" and called for the international community to intervene and send observers. The UN agency for Palestinian refugees, UNRWA, said two schools were hit by tank shells, including one run by the agency. One of the shells failed to explode. "I am deeply dismayed and saddened by the loss of life in the refugee camp and the serious damage caused to UNRWA and Palestinian Authority schools," said the agency’s commissioner-general, Peter Hansen. "This is another case of disproportionate force being use against civilian targets, including schools full of children," he said in a statement, while stressing the children were not injured as they had already been sent home. At least six people, most of them children, were killed last week in Rafah by Israeli forces in incursions into the self-rule Palestinian town on the Israel-controlled border with Egypt. One was a four-year-old child crushed to death when Israeli sappers detonated a nearby house reportedly used for arms smuggling. Israeli tanks make regular charges into the impoverished town of 140,000 Palestinians in search of tunnels dug under the border into Egypt and allegedly used to smuggle weapons into the Gaza Strip, a hugely overpopulated area which is the bastion of hardline Islamists. The killings came as Sharon was about to head home from Washington, where he obtained a tacit nod from Bush to respond to any possible Iraqi missile strike should Baghdad attack Israel during an anticipated US campaign against President Saddam Hussein. Aside from the new bloodshed in the Gaza Strip — more and more the focus of Israeli raids since the army brought most of the West Bank under its control four months ago — a Palestinian gunman was arrested after opening fire on an Israeli car in the Jordan Valley, injuring an Israeli. Meanwhile in Ramallah on the West Bank, Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat was adding the finishing touches to his new cabinet, which he was forced to reshuffle in September for the second time in four months after his rebellious parliament insisted his promised reforms had not gone nearly far enough. Longtime Arafat stalwart Yasser Abed Rabbo said he would not be standing for office in the new government after reports emerged he was facing the chop, as Arafat’s own Fatah faction — which dominates the parliament — piled pressure on its veteran leader to press ahead with a major overhaul. Arafat’s administration, set up in 1994, is widely accused of corruption and mismanagement, and has also come under flak for having no clear strategy to exit the two-year-old Palestinian uprising which has killed almost 2,000 Palestinians and more than 600 Israelis. Fatah has secured the key position of interior minister for its senior official Hani al-Hassan, while a final line-up is not expected to be announced until Sunday. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ — WARNING! When trying to withdraw from many psychiatric drugs, patients can develop serious and even life-threatening emotional and physical reactions. In short, it is dangerous not only to start taking psychiatric drugs but also can be hazardous to stop taking them. Therefore, withdrawal from psychiatric drugs should be done under clinical supervision. Principles of drug withdrawal are discussed in Your Drug May Be Your Problem: How and Why to Stop Taking Psychiatric Medications. information on Prozac and Prozac-like drugs can be found in Talking Back to Prozac by Peter R. Breggin, M.D. and Ginger Ross Breggin. DSM IV is the fabrication upon which psychiatry seeks acceptance by medicine in general. Insiders know it is more a political than scientific document. To its credit it says so –Loren R. Mosher, M.D.

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Question:

would he skip the paper and deliberately shit on the floor?

Response:

>would he skip the paper and deliberately shit on the floor?

So true.  I have no interest in the cult of scientology.  I believed the myth that I was bipolar and all I needed was the "just right" combo of meds to feel better.  In truth the meds made me sicker and sicker and sicker and sicker.  The longer I took meds the worse I felt.  All the while I believe the myth that I needed meds for life.  Sometimes I would question why I was suddenly so sick but the pdocs and therps would always answer the bipolar can strike late in life.  But the truth was the meds were making me so sick. Starting with Paxil that made me manic to the point of needing hospitalization then the Risperdal